GenRad 1191-B Counter

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Cubdriver
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GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

As mentioned in the TEA thread, I recently bought a basket case General Radio 1191-B counter from the Bay of Evil. It was rather rough looking, with a display filter that was pretty much opaque from crazing, and only a single photo in the listing. It was initially listed at $50; I offered $40 and it went unanswered until the offer expired. A few days later the price was reduced to $40, which was what I was willing to pay (figure the 8 nixies were worth at least that much, not that I plan to part it out), so I grabbed it. It arrived unscathed despite a rather poor packing job, and I got to start poking and prodding at it this weekend.

It's an 8 digit 35 MHz counter with an additional 10 MHz 'B' input that can do frequency, period and count on the 'A' input, as well as interval A-B and ratio A/B. Based on the date codes on various components, it looks to be late 1971 vintage - a glance shows codes ranging between late 1969 and mid-late 1971.

It does power up, and lights the nixies, but that's about as far as things go at the moment. The biggest issue at the start is the opaque display filter - it is crazed to the point of reducing the nixies to indistinct orange glows.
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The crazing at first glance was confusing me a bit, as both the front and rear of the window are smooth and shiny. The first task at hand was to get it out for a closer examination. This is proved to be a challenge as it wasn't exactly designed for easy extraction. (Though in GR's defense, I doubt they expected that some nutcase would be trying to fix it 50+ years ( :shock: :shock: - I remember 1971 - there's no way it's been 50 years since then!!!) later.) As with HP and Fluke stuff of that era, it's very well made.

The window appeared to be retained by the thin silkscreened faceplate, which is affixed to the front bulkhead of the counter. The wraparound faceplate can be seen at the bottom of this image, folded back and covering the edge of the raw aluminum bulkhead:
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Now for the fun part - getting it apart. There are handles, knobs, switches and BNC jacks holding it on:
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Once I got into taking it apart, it proved to be a bit easier than I'd first anticipated - it was just a matter of taking things off in the correct order, as various bits overlap/block access to others, so the sequence was important to some extent. I haven't played much with GR stuff up till now, so it took some cogitation. Turns out that the knobs pull straight off - they are multi-part and consist of a central piece that attaches to the shaft; the knob then fits over it and is retained by a small clip inside that bears on a groove in the center part, which also has flatted sides to align the knob cover. The aluminum center section is on the switch shaft, and the knob resting atop the unit. The retaining clip is at 9:00 in the ID of the knob:
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The right side (pictured above) was pretty easy control-wise - once the knob cover was off, the panel would fit over the remaining piece, and the switch was mounted to the bulkhead leaving the front panel cover free.

The left side was a bit more difficult - I hoped the rotary switches would be similar to those on the right, but the power and input coupling toggle switches would need to have their nuts removed, and the BNCs would need to be desoldered and removed as they were front loaded and held from the rear:
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Polarity/attenuator & threshold controls were the same as the range switch on the right - once the knob covers were pulled the panel was free from them. The display time was not quite as friendly; it's nutted to the front panel. Knob cover and inner spool had to come off to permit the nut to be removed and the panel be freed.
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I made sure to scribe an alignment mark across the shaft face and spool before removing it (once in a while I think of such things in time!)
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Now comes the 'order' part - the rack handles have to come off, but their screws are blocked by the side covers that are held in place by screws behind the rack handles and nuts on the back side. Thankfully, GR was thoughtful enough to put holes in the handle faces to permit a screwdriver to pass through and engage the screws. (It would have been simple enough to use a wrench to remove the nuts on the back side, but was far easier to simply hold them still with my fingers and use a screwdriver to remove the screws:
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Cubdriver
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

Getting the side covers out of the way exposed the rack handle screws, permitting their removal:
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Both inputs had to be desoldered and the BNCs pulled out from the front:
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The 'B' input's retaining nut was close enough to hit the wall; I had to loosen the nuts that held the bulkhead to the side panel to shift it slightly and unscrew it with a screwdriver to get it out. Not looking forward to putting that one back in!
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Caught the BNC nuts/washers with a resistor lead:
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This left two more small nuts, top and bottom and biased somewhat towards the right side (where it wasn't retained by anything beyond the rack handle and the chassis side panel screws), then off it came:
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The front panel is a very clever design - all folded sheet metal, punched out but without the need for any sort of machining. The rearmost part extends across the entire face of the instrument, and protrudes out past to form the rack ears, which are stronger by dint of being double thickness - the end is folded over towards the front/center and flattened, forming the ears. The window opening in this part is ~3/16"/4mm smaller than the filter window, preventing it from falling through into the interior of the instrument.
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A second sheet of aluminum fills in the missing thickness in the center of the panel to make its front surface even with the folded rack ears. This piece has a window opening that matches the size of the filter window, locating it laterally, and also has hex shaped holes at the corners and near the window opening. These lock the rotation of several thin-headed hex screws, four of which at the outer edges hold the screws that secure the panel to the walls of the enclosure, and the other, smaller four outside the window hold a pair of brackets that mount the small pushbutton switches that protrude through the window.
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The finally liberated filter window - the issue quickly became evident:
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The window is (as dl6lr posited in the TEA thread) laminated, consisting of the outer yellow tinted filter layer backed with a piece of clear material, and the crazing is the joint between the two layers breaking down. I *think* it's acrylic, but am not 100% certain.
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At this point I'm not sure how I'm going to proceed with fixing it - I suspect that trying to pry the two pieces apart will completely bugger them up and leave a surface like the moon in the area where they mate. Trying to re-bond the joint with methylene chloride might work, but I suspect that it is either too far gone to get a transparent bond, or that it won't completely wick in given the large area and relatively great distance across the window. The more likely option will probably be to try to rebuild it, either by machining a thicker piece of yellow/orange tinted acrylic to incorporate the step around the edge, or trying to bond fresh sheets of clear and tinted material together. This is a new one for me to deal with...

Anyway, now that the window is out the tubes can be clearly seen. Some of them are a bit 'fuzzy', with multiple digits lighting at the same time. This appears to be a driver board issue, as when the tubes are swapped the issue remains in the same spot.
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I'm hopeful that cleaning the driver board will cure the phantom digits - there is some schmoo present under the driver ships associated with the problem digits - it looks like residual flux to me. Fortunately the driver ICs and nixies are socketed, so I'm going to try removing the board, pulling them, and cleaning the dirty areas; if all else fails it'll go for a quick dip in my ultrasonic cleaner to get rid of the crud.
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More to follow, but that's it for now. Time to hunker down for the predicted storm that's allegedly on its way tonight. It's currently raining, but heavy, wet snow and high winds are in the forecast. Radar now shows the rain/snow line as just west of me. Fun, fun!

-Pat
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

One of the lab techs was 'helping' last night, too
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(The counter was, fortunately, unplugged during his examination of it.)

-Pat
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by mansaxel »

What a wonderfully quirky device, compared to say the 5245L. Solid like a small office safe, too. Very nice write-up. Looking forward to the continued renovation thread.
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

Worked a bit more on the 1191-B tonight, pulling the display board. My initial thought had been to pull the board and the attached edge connectors, but then after looking at things more closely, I elected to desolder the jumpers running from the display board to the edge connectors rather than monkeying with the other interconnects from edge connectors to other places in the instrument. The ribbon cable drives the nixie decimal points; its opposite end connects to a deck on the range switch.
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Desoldering them proved to be relatively quick and painless; about 2/3 of them were free with a single inhalation from the Soldapullt, the remaining ones just need a touch of heat and a tug with the pliers.
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The joints at the board are surprisingly ugly - wonder if it was reworked at some point in the past? I'm surprised at the size of some of the solder blobs on the wires near and at the board. Also just noticed when looking at the photo that one row of IC socket pins (towards the left of the image) was trimmed off, but no others. Weird...
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Lots of schmoo under those IC sockets! I think it might just go straight into the ultrasonic for a bath. The chips are Fairchild 996079 BCD to decimal nixie drivers in nice ceramic packages. (https://w140.com/tekwiki/images/3/3c/Fa ... driver.pdf
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Looks like it's wicked up into the sockets, too - more than a few of those pins look nasty where they enter the sockets, too. Hope it's just surface corrosion and that they're not rotted internally.
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Definitely in need of a good cleaning!
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And now I see that the IC socket pins mentioned earlier weren't trimmed - the socket (2nd from left in picture) was installed with a list. Nice job, GenRad!
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Blechh!
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More to follow in time...

-Pat
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by AVGresponding »

Let's hope those driver ICs are all good, can't imagine they are easy to find nowadays!
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Specmaster »

None of those drivers appear to be fully inserted in the sockets either. It has the appearance of being made on Friday, when the assemblers mind on the weekend to come. :lol:
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

…or first thing Monday morning before the hangover from the weekend had abated…

I found a place online that allegedly has some of the driver chips in stock; they’re about $8/a pop, but yeah, seeing as they likely went obsolete in the very early 70s and I suspect they were sort of oddballs even in their heyday, they’re probably about like hen's teeth availability-wise now 50 years later.

Fingers crossed that they’re still good.

-Pat
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by mnementh »

Cubdriver wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:06 am ...I'm hopeful that cleaning the driver board will cure the phantom digits - there is some schmoo present under the driver ships associated with the problem digits - it looks like residual flux to me. Fortunately the driver ICs and nixies are socketed, so I'm going to try removing the board, pulling them, and cleaning the dirty areas; if all else fails it'll go for a quick dip in my ultrasonic cleaner to get rid of the crud.
Image

More to follow, but that's it for now. Time to hunker down for the predicted storm that's allegedly on its way tonight. It's currently raining, but heavy, wet snow and high winds are in the forecast. Radar now shows the rain/snow line as just west of me. Fun, fun!

-Pat
Wow, those are some crusty-ass mutherfuckers right there. Best wishes that the pins on the chips haven't been all eaten away... :o

mnem
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by mnementh »

Well, one can't necessarily blame that on assembly; the thing is older than I am. I know from experience working on fleet PCs back in the day, that DIPs can work themselves upwards over time; presumably from expansion/contraction due to power cycles and heat. Expansion cards that I know I reseated chips on (cuz it was in my notes) a couple years prior again a couple mm up off the socket; I've seen it with my own widdle tinkerDwagon eyes. ;)

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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

I pulled the ICs in preparation for ultrasonic cleaning; need to run to the store in a bit for some distilled water.
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The chips were in fact fully seated in their sockets; the sockets used are pretty thin. I reinserted this one for the picture, and it is for sure bottomed out in the socket.
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Gotta love the alignment of that IC top cover! :lol:
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The IC pins, while looking rather nasty, are at least solid. The corrosion is only on the surface; I'll try cleaning them with a greenie pad and/or possibly re tinning them (one at a time so as not to cook the chip) if abrasion doesn't pretty them up enough.
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

After a total (literally) of THREE minutes in the ultrasonic cleaner (after waiting an hour and a half for the bloody thing to warm the bath up to 60° C) followed by a hot water rinse, an IPA flood, a blow off out in the garage with some pressluft, then warming with a hair dryer, the board has had its bath. Looks like there's been a bit of an improvement. ;)

Pre clean:
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Post clean:
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Cleaning was done at 60° C in a 3% mixture of water and Branson EC, 1 minute with the board resting upright, 1 with it upside down, and finally 1 minute standing mostly on its face (~75° angle) tipped so the component side was on the 'bottom'. I plan to give it at least a day to fully dry before doing anything more with it. Still need to try cleaning the IC pins, too.

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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by mnementh »

Wow, Pat... those IC sockets sure cleaned up; I thought for sure they'd need to be replaced. :thumbsup:

acoustic-guitar-strings.jpg
gonna try the phosphor-bronze guitar string and Deoxit attack on those choob sockets?

mnem
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised at how well things cleaned up, too. The nixie sockets are looking a bit grody, will either try to scare up an old low E string, or use my torch tip cleaner very gingerly. Maybe start with a Deoxit soaked pipe cleaner as a first attempt.

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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by bd139 »

I'm going to end up with an ultrasonic bath at this rate. Bloody enablers!
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

bd139 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:09 pm I'm going to end up with an ultrasonic bath at this rate. Bloody enablers!
We do try to help out where possible - inspiration, justification, plausible excuses for SWMBOs (or, though I don’t think we’ve yet had to, HWMBOs do HWMBOs even exist?), leads for deals, etc…

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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Specmaster »

bd139 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:09 pm I'm going to end up with an ultrasonic bath at this rate. Bloody enablers!
Yeah, trouble is to get one worth having, they cost a pretty penny. By that, I mean one that is big enough to pop a reasonable sized board in for cleaning. I have a small cheap jewellery sized on from Lidl which I've used for smaller boards to good effect. I could have done with a bigger one when I was trying to clean the board for the 4503 DMM, would have saved so much time but after many manual cleaning sessions, I get there on the high impedance input section. ;)
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by mnementh »

bd139 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:09 pmI'm going to end up with an ultrasonic bath at this rate. Bloody enablers!
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Jeebus bd; you don't already? Hell, even the cheap-arse dwagon has one! :rofl:

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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

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You lot are terrible. Please never change :lol:
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

bd139 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:49 am You lot are terrible. Please never change :lol:
No worries. We always aim to please! :lol:

-Pat
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by tggzzz »

mnementh wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:01 am
bd139 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:09 pmI'm going to end up with an ultrasonic bath at this rate. Bloody enablers!
Image
Jeebus bd; you don't already? Hell, even the cheap-arse dwagon has one! :rofl:
Neither do I.

Have you seen one big enough for me to put my (small) house in?
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by mnementh »

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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

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mnementh wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:47 pm Image

mnem
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Nice try but ultrasonic it aint :lol: :lol:
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Cubdriver »

Decided to take a crack at the display window the other night. After determining that it was definitely two pieces laminated together and that the fault was at the interface, I concluded that I'd have to split it. I broke out my trusty pocket knife and gently slid it into a spot at the corner that showed signs of separating/delaminating, and it did a nice job of splitting the two pieces:
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Gently rocking the knife blade as I worked along the window split it into two pieces with no issue. Almost immediately it became clear that it was actually THREE pieces - the large transparent part, a thin transparent part between it and the tinted filter, and the filter itself. It was splitting at the junction between the thick and thin transparent parts:
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In some areas the thin part separated from the tinted plastic and was more inclined to adhere to the thicker transparent part:
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Once fully separated it was obvious the whole thing had likely been under a fair pit of stress, as both pieces of plastic had quite the bow in them - in opposite directions, so they'd been trying to pull apart from the center. In this photo, the tinted piece has simply been laid on its face as though the two were a book with the spine at the center. Both pieces are bowed both transversely and longitudinally - if left unconstrained they'd form a nice convex lens:
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Shortly after they'd been separated, the thinner transparent section began curling away from the tinted piece:
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Peeling:
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Fully separated:
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I'm not sure what the purpose of the middle section was - I suspect that it might have been a piece of double-stick tape, but cant be sure because in a few spots the adhesive that would have been outside the area of the tinted part stayed on the tinted piece rather than the 'tape', which makes me wonder if it was adhesive on the face of a piece of tape, or glue applied separately (note it adjacent to the black painted circles here). This photo shows the stack from top to bottom, as they'd go together. The bowing is plainly evident:
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I'm not sure if this will be something I can san/polish out, and even if I do how I'll get the parts flat enough to reglue or re-tape them. It'll be challenging because they both bow out at the center, so getting them back together without trapping a bubble in the center doesn't strike me as a fun thing to attempt. Haven't tried much along the lines of solvent on anything yet beyond a drop of Goo-Gone on the crazing on the thin piece; it did nothing noticeable to the residue or crazing. At this point it appears that the crazing is present an all the surfaces - both sides of the 'tape' have the texture, and the inner sides of the other two pieces do as well. Need to look at them under the microscope to see if that makes anything clearer.

-Pat
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Re: GenRad 1191-B Counter

Post by Specmaster »

Interesting, could you not make a window from a single piece of tinted perspex?
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