Test Equipment Anonymous

I'm just interested in where this will end up, it was in the High Court today as many LB's brought action against TFL as they say that it is not warranted as air is clean. Also let me remind everyone, in case they are not aware or have forgotten, but I'm not following this because I don't want to pay the silly daily charge when I enter into the zone, my car already is exempt from the charge, so its not a monetary motive at all.

I'm looking at data supplied by DEFRA which is freely available and that data also confirms that the air in London is good overall and certainly is the case in the areas that TFL are proposing the £12.50 a day tax on vehicles do not meet the requirements.

Looking at DEFRA website map, 3 monitoring sites that caught my eye as having higher readings are Lavender Hill, the monitoring station is located right next door to a Nandos and what looks like the kitchen window, remember readings in kitchens or places that use gas for cooking/heating exhibit far higher readings into the yellow zones for air quality.

The next one I looked at was Lambeth Bondway, again monitoring station is locate close to a LUL vent stack and also Wandsworth bus station, both are sources of higher pollution and thus contributing to the higher than average readings.

The next one is on Marylebone Road, again by a LUL vent shaft and also Baker Street LUL station.

I accept that the reading that "the fuckwit on YT" did are not conducted in an ideal manner and are not "normalised" etc but the statistics and probability that the cheap meter he was using being so far out of whack in the different locations that he took readings in, is so low that you have a far higher chance of being struck by lightening, not one but twice. Hell he stood next to the DEFRA station at Ikea on the NCR and showed you his reading and the DEFRA's reading, very close they were.

I think it is very dangerous to label all YT video makers as fuckwits etc just because they hold a differing viewpoint to your own, hell, we have members from our forums both here and EEV blog who also have YT channels and I also watch them. So loads of YT video makers take to using the platform because the main stream media will not cover the topics, the same as they will not attempt to hold our political leaders to account and just allow them to carry on doing just what they want.

I did say in another post, that some of the DEFRA site readings that appeared to be higher than others, and steps could be taken to improve the situation, and doing some very simple research of my own, I have identified why it is that the 3 examples above consistently gave higher readings then others in the area. I therefore think that what I said before about London air becoming much cleaner since the industrial sites have almost disappeared and tailpipe emissions are getting cleaner with the introduction of not only the EURO engines but also most of the really old inefficient cars have largely been removed from our roads through them dying of old age and being scrapped combined with the UK scrappage schemes we used to run.

I tend to go by what I can see for myself, and with my lifelong battle with chronic asthma suddenly coming to an end and that end just happened to coincide with what I said before re, retail parks etc, so I can see, and feel it for myself, I don't someone from City Hall telling me I can't believe my own experiences.

TFL have been asked repeatedly for the data to support the case for ULEZ expansion and repeatedly, they have so far failed to show it. DEFRA's own data also shows other results for each site, quarterly and yearly etc, and they show the air quality to be good and using the coloured table I posted the other day, almost entirely in the green zone which means zero risk to even the most vulnerable people from being outside in the air.

I don't need to study books on how understand data and analyse it, when the Governments own ministry are already doing it.

So once more, if someone can show evidence that the the figures do indeed show that the air quality is dangerous, I'll look at it, my mind is open and unlike the Iron Lady, I will turn if the evidence shows me conclusively that my beliefs are wrong. Everybody is entitled to change their mind, including that Steel fellow about 5G and LED drivers, but I doubt that he would because he loves the attention he was getting

I'm done. My point is missed. I do not wish to make it again.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:55 pm I accept that the reading that "the fuckwit on YT" did are not conducted in an ideal manner and are not "normalised" etc but the statistics and probability that the cheap meter he was using being so far out of whack in the different locations that he took readings in, is so low that you have a far higher chance of being struck by lightening, not one but twice.

We've all seen amateurs/beginners on EEVBLog who misunderstand theory, use electronic test equipment incorrectly and get useless misleading results. It happens so frequently I've written descriptions of why the frequency of a digital waveform is irrelevant (only transition time matters), and why *10 "high" impedance probes are lower impedance than "low" impedance probes, and can resonate at ~100MHz.

The same is true in other disciplines.

I think it is very dangerous to label all YT video makers as fuckwits etc just because they hold a differing viewpoint to your own,

Agreed.

Nonetheless 99.9% of youtube videos are a waste of time, and too many are actively wrong because the author is biassed/ignorant/malicious. The problem is that drowns out the 0.1%.

I tend to go by what I can see for myself, and with my lifelong battle with chronic asthma suddenly coming to an end and that end just happened to coincide with what I said before re, retail parks etc, so I can see, and feel it for myself, I don't someone from City Hall telling me I can't believe my own experiences.

In that case surely you would be pushing for emission zones?

I used to suffer badly from hay fever; piriton was a real problem in exam season. Nowadays I take maybe 1 tablet per year. Obviously that is because grass pollen has reduced very significantly. Isn't it?

Personal experience can be very misleading. For example, as noted in the book I mentioned, the author travels on the London Underground, and cannot believe while the "crush capacity" is >1000, the average occupancy is "<130". Then he goes on to describe how both statements can be true simultaneously. (Chapter 2: Ponder Your Personal Experience).

Do get the book; it really is a good and interesting read.

I don't need to study books on how understand data and analyse it, when the Governments own ministry are already doing it.

That's a non-sequiteur, and the evidence is against you.

bd139 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:31 am I'm done. My point is missed. I do not wish to make it again.

Clearly you are unfit to be a help line droid, viz "have you tried turning it off and on again"

Nah, it is not that simple.

Victoria Park for instance, the source of much debate the other day, the monitoring station is located at the back of a sports pavilion in the middle of the park, this is the one that showing RED the other day, that is a major danger to health, was clearly faulty, now fixed. It is located some 365 yds from Victoria Park Road, 443yds from the A12, 627yds from Old Ford Road and is 947yds from Grove Road, so yes it does help to know the area and some information about the subject.

Today it is reading the exactly the same as the air monitoring station here in my City of Chelmsford, and that reading is just 13. That is in the green zone, which goes from 0 to 50 and then into the moderate zone of 51 to 100 (yellow).

Lets now draw a line in the sand and agree to wait and see the outcome of the court hearing

AVGresponding wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:26 pm Sabine Hossenfelder has just dropped this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcV4bfE ... p=gAQBiAQB

Once again the car has been singled out, greater reductions would come from industry etc and there were many golden nuggets in the video that show that we are unlikely to hit the stated deadlines for various countries ban sales of new ICE vehicles, the USA for instance has not set a date and it is the UK that is leading with the 2030 as the target date with most of the world going for 2035 or later.

I find this rather ironic when the air quality of the UK is already pretty good as can be seen in this live and interactive air quality map of the world and it clearly shows the countries that need to do more and if they did, they alone would make huge difference for everyone.

Drilling down into the areas of high pollution it will be also be seen that areas of much higher pollution is actually in areas of high industrial activity, so EV cars will not make that much of a reduction globally and certainly not locally, here in the UK, so the question needs asking, why is the UK setting the shortest time scale here? I'd hazard a guess here, it is being used as a distraction from other things.

https://aqicn.org/map/world/

Or maybe the goal is to just make you think twice before driving into town to buy something you can get within walking distance for $2 more.

mnem
Fuck's sake; let the kids ride the bus or bike to the park 2 blocks away instead of piling all of you into the Suckburban...

mnementh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:06 am Fuck's sake; let the kids ride the bus or bike to the park 2 blocks away instead of piling all of you into the Suckburban...

In the more civilised parts of the world we have this thing called "perambulation" which is more than adequate to cover the 200 - 400m distance that "two blocks" represents without the use of any mechanical contrivance or the inconvenience attendant thereto, either in operation and parking, or waiting for and paying fares. Said distances could be covered by a "perambulator" in 75 and 150 seconds respectively, or perhaps 150 and 300 seconds respectively of the subject favours "promenading" over perambulation. Should the person desirous of moving between two locations prefer the form of locomotion favoured by the "flâneur" then one would have to take into account the reduced pace of the typical flâneur and set the journey times to 5 and 10 minutes respectively, adding perhaps 2 hours for prior selection and donning of a suitable wardrobe.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/aYNbNrb6u ... KzHAhi27gI


mnem
because of course it won't fucking work...

Cerebus wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:58 am

mnementh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:06 am Fuck's sake; let the kids ride the bus or bike to the park 2 blocks away instead of piling all of you into the Suckburban...

In the more civilised parts of the world we have this thing called "perambulation" which is more than adequate to cover the 200 - 400m distance that "two blocks" represents without the use of any mechanical contrivance or the inconvenience attendant thereto, either in operation and parking, or waiting for and paying fares. Said distances could be covered by a "perambulator" in 75 and 150 seconds respectively, or perhaps 150 and 300 seconds respectively of the subject favours "promenading" over perambulation. Should the person desirous of moving between two locations prefer the form of locomotion favoured by the "flâneur" then one would have to take into account the reduced pace of the typical flâneur and set the journey times to 5 and 10 minutes respectively, adding perhaps 2 hours for prior selection and donning of a suitable wardrobe.

I don't think you can perambulate too far in the US without getting shot. A flâneur would be an ideal target for the urban highwayman.

----

Anyway back on topic.

Got a better solution than the ULEZ. Anyone resident outside the M25 should be disallowed from commenting on it. It's a local problem for local people .

The answer is really picking a more civilised form of transport.

Healthy -> get on a fucking bike.
Lazy/tired -> get on a fucking bus/train.
Don't live near a public transport hub -> dumbass your own fault.
Anyone else -> quit fucking moaning.

bd139 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:02 pm

Cerebus wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:58 am

mnementh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:06 am Fuck's sake; let the kids ride the bus or bike to the park 2 blocks away instead of piling all of you into the Suckburban...

In the more civilised parts of the world we have this thing called "perambulation" which is more than adequate to cover the 200 - 400m distance that "two blocks" represents without the use of any mechanical contrivance or the inconvenience attendant thereto, either in operation and parking, or waiting for and paying fares. Said distances could be covered by a "perambulator" in 75 and 150 seconds respectively, or perhaps 150 and 300 seconds respectively of the subject favours "promenading" over perambulation. Should the person desirous of moving between two locations prefer the form of locomotion favoured by the "flâneur" then one would have to take into account the reduced pace of the typical flâneur and set the journey times to 5 and 10 minutes respectively, adding perhaps 2 hours for prior selection and donning of a suitable wardrobe.

I don't think you can perambulate too far in the US without getting shot. A flâneur would be an ideal target for the urban highwayman.

----

Anyway back on topic.

Got a better solution than the ULEZ. Anyone resident outside the M25 should be disallowed from commenting on it. It's a local problem for local people .

The answer is really picking a more civilised form of transport.

Healthy -> get on a fucking bike.
Lazy/tired -> get on a fucking bus/train.
Don't live near a public transport hub -> dumbass your own fault.
Anyone else -> quit fucking moaning.

All good points except for thing, just because some folk live outside the kind of circle formed by the M25, does not mean that they don't have to frequently drive within the M25 does it? That kind of reasoning makes zero sense, I'm afraid to say. One only has to observe the massive traffic flow into and out of the London at the beginning and end of a day

London's streets are supposed to be paved with gold and I know loads of family and friends who commute to London daily for that mega fat pay check in order to pay their mortgage etc, such salary's are not available anywhere else. Equally they cannot afford to live in London and just to get a modest 1 bed flat these days here will cost you northwards £180,000 to £400,000 and renting, £1,250 a month and more.

bd139 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:02 pm
Anyway back on topic.

Got a better solution than the ULEZ. Anyone resident outside the M25 should be disallowed from commenting on it. It's a local problem for local people .

The answer is really picking a more civilised form of transport.

Healthy -> get on a fucking bike.
Lazy/tired -> get on a fucking bus/train.
Don't live near a public transport hub -> dumbass your own fault.
Anyone else -> quit fucking moaning.

Need to do a week's shopping?
Walk to the shopping centre, grab a trolley, fill it up, push it home, unload it, then take the trolley back to the shopping centre.
Feel virtuous.
Of course, a lot of people leave out the last steps & just take the trolley a couple of houses down & leave it outside someone else's house.

Ok, before anyone else says it: -

Find the website of the shop of your choice, register, buy online, paying with your credit/debit card.
Next day (or maybe the one after that) the van will deliver your weekly shopping, minus a few items which they didn't have, but charged you for, or including substitutions which don't make sense.

You can still feel virtuous, without either becoming exhausted, or in the other scenario, making a deadly enemy.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:35 pm All good points except for thing, just because some folk live outside the kind of circle formed by the M25, does not mean that they don't have to frequently drive within the M25 does it? That kind of reasoning makes zero sense, I'm afraid to say. One only has to observe the massive traffic flow into and out of the London at the beginning and end of a day

But do they need to?

The fact that they can is a testament to the ideology of the car which is, despite common belief, currently dying. Ignoring the minor advantages for society, they have a lot of negatives and we're being weened off them slowly. The London commuter is a ridiculous concepted forged from the ashes of plenty, credit and the ancient assumption that people actually have to be in one place somewhere fancy to get work done. The poverty gap this creates where there are hoards of low income people supporting them is insane.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:35 pm London's streets are supposed to be paved with gold and I know loads of family and friends who commute to London daily for that mega fat pay check in order to pay their mortgage etc, such salary's are not available anywhere else. Equally they cannot afford to live in London and just to get a modest 1 bed flat these days here will cost you northwards £180,000 to £400,000 and renting, £1,250 a month and more.

If you can't afford that mortgage or rent then you're not on a mega fat pay cheque. To live in most bits of London you need to be able to shred a couple of grand a month and shrug. This is supply and demand mechanics.

Lets fix some more problems:

1. Tax offices in London heavily. It's a stupid place to build them and they introduce ancillary transportation and environmental impact.
2. Introduce rent controls, build more social housing, reduce house ownership considerably (one of the sins of modern society IMHO).
3. Pave over most of London and make it mostly only accessible to public transport and bicycles.
4. Invest in public transport.
5. Shoot all SUV drivers.

This is a bit difficult though because our current elite:

1. Own a lot of offices in London.
2. Own a lot of property in London
3. Don't like spending money on transportation unless it allows them to slice off cash (HS2 *cough*)
4. Same again
5. Drive bullet proof SUVs

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:14 am Lets fix some more problems:

1. Tax offices in London heavily. It's a stupid place to build them and they introduce ancillary transportation and environmental impact.
2. Introduce rent controls, build more social housing, reduce house ownership considerably (one of the sins of modern society IMHO).
3. Pave over most of London and make it mostly only accessible to public transport and bicycles.
4. Invest in public transport.
5. Shoot all SUV drivers.

This is a bit difficult though because our current elite:

1. Own a lot of offices in London.
2. Own a lot of property in London
3. Don't like spending money on transportation unless it allows them to slice off cash (HS2 *cough*)
4. Same again
5. Drive bullet proof SUVs

Now these points have a lot of merit but until these are acted on bugger all will change, while the pandemic was on most of those who could work from home did so and you what, the work got done just the same and could/would carry on today if it were not for the elite demanding that people return to the office etc. All of the grand ideas, like "Eat out to help out" etc were all designed to meet one end goal, to help other elites, nothing was for the good of normal people.

Why make people drive/commute hundreds of miles in order to attend meetings when they could be carried out just as effectively using Zoom etc without the time/cost wasted travelling to say nothing of the reduction in pollution.

The other cultural change that needs to happen is for business to relocate away from London in order to spread gainful employment around the country, thus reducing the need for this daily grind of commuting into the city.

Background: I grew up in the 60s/70s well within the M25. Even then I thought anyone taking a car into central London needed to have their head examined.

bd139 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:02 pm Got a better solution than the ULEZ. Anyone resident outside the M25 should be disallowed from commenting on it. It's a local problem for local people .

And anybody else forced to use it.

The local ULEZ has ~200 yards inside the signposted route from the motorway to the airport. Once committed the only escape route starts with a 330degree bend just within most car's turning circle and where all traffic crosses into the path of traffic coming the other way. Then there's a long steep road up a cliff, then cross a toll bridge.

When traffic is diverted off the motorway, the city council promises not to enforce the charge. Unfortunately they've also been caught repeatedly lying on another 100 yard bit on the fringe.

Plus Crapita (who else) has lousy ANPR that harrass drivers who have never been within >100 miles; there's a good chance that harassment lawsuit will end up in court.

Healthy -> get on a fucking bike.
Lazy/tired -> get on a fucking bus/train.
Don't live near a public transport hub -> dumbass your own fault.
Anyone else -> quit fucking moaning.

Elderly - die sooner.
Needing home help in London - move somewhere where carers can afford to travel.

The London commuter is a ridiculous concepted forged from the ashes of plenty, credit and the ancient assumption that people actually have to be in one place somewhere fancy to get work done.

Let me introduce you to the 1920s concept of "Metroland". John Betjeman did a wonderful elegy to it, but I haven't spotted it on yootoob.

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:14 am (SNIP)

This is a bit difficult though because our current elite:

1. Own a lot of offices in London.
2. Own a lot of property in London
3. Don't like spending money on transportation unless it allows them to slice off cash (HS2 *cough*)
4. Same again
5. Drive bullet proof SUVs

If you Gurrgle HS2, the first page (and almost all the auto-populated search terms) are for

Will HS2 EVER happen?

mnem
You wanna fix everything...? Tax a rich mutherfucker. Lather, rinse, repeat.

tggzzz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:02 am Background: I grew up in the 60s/70s well within the M25. Even then I thought anyone taking a car into central London needed to have their head examined.

bd139 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 10:02 pm
The London commuter is a ridiculous concepted forged from the ashes of plenty, credit and the ancient assumption that people actually have to be in one place somewhere fancy to get work done.

Let me introduce you to the 1920s concept of "Metroland". John Betjeman did a wonderful elegy to it, but I haven't spotted it on yootoob.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro-Land_(1973_film)

https://vimeo.com/574168299

mnem

At the end of all this "We must clean up our act and save the planet" crap and crap it is, if you view it in this fashion, that the biggest proponents of it are the so called leaders, leaders of councils, leaders of countries and leaders of the world etc seldom ever live up to their own hype.

Take for example the case of our current Mayor of London and compare him to his 2 predecessors, he drives round in a huge armoured Range Rover which emits miles more offending obnoxious gases than the average car does and harming the air quality more then his predecessors did. Not that I'm a huge fan of Boris Johnson but he did ride a bike and then you have Ken Livingstone, he used to ride the underground a lot, leading by example.

Then you have the current PM, with his massive security detail which goes with him, takes helicopter and planes to places that he could drive to in a couple of hours and then you have the like of the President of the USA, look at the gigantic pollution cloud that he generates everywhere he goes. On his recent trip to London to see King Charles, he had many C17's planes fly into Northolt, Stansted, Mildenhall on many occasions bringing his over the top motor cavalcade, 5 helicopters and scores of security staff and other official staff. Many movements of said equipment in rehearsal preparation for his visit. Then when he himself comes, there is his AF1 747 and his Doomsday planes, landing at Stansted and moving off to other locations in the UK. Then you have all of that in reverse to take him and his equipment either back home or onto his next planned visit.

I hear of reports of both John Mayor and Tony Blair (both former UK PM's) using trains, and normal scheduled planes on many of their journeys.????

More statistical anomalies incoming... really need to read that book.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:58 pm At the end of all this "We must clean up our act and save the planet" crap and crap it is, if you view it in this fashion, that the biggest proponents of it are the so called leaders, leaders of councils, leaders of countries and leaders of the world etc seldom ever live up to their own hype.

Actually middle England's reliance on cars and driving ancient pieces of crap are the worst offenders if you add them all together. Estimated 5 orders or more of magnitude off there.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:58 pm Take for example the case of our current Mayor of London and compare him to his 2 predecessors, he drives round in a huge armoured Range Rover which emits miles more offending obnoxious gases than the average car does and harming the air quality more then his predecessors did. Not that I'm a huge fan of Boris Johnson but he did ride a bike and then you have Ken Livingstone, he used to ride the underground a lot, leading by example.

He drives around in an armoured Range Rover due to the death threats after his predecessor's party set the press on him to try and discredit his quite reasonable policies. Boris stopped riding a bike and had a Range Rover convoy too when people worked out who he really was, but everyone remembers the cycling end of things. Ken Livingstone, well, he was a regular arsehole on public transport - perhaps better off in a Range Rover...

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:58 pm Then you have the current PM, with his massive security detail which goes with him, takes helicopter and planes to places that he could drive to in a couple of hours and then you have the like of the President of the USA, look at the gigantic pollution cloud that he generates everywhere he goes. On his recent trip to London to see King Charles, he had many C17's planes fly into Northolt, Stansted, Mildenhall on many occasions bringing his over the top motor cavalcade, 5 helicopters and scores of security staff and other official staff. Many movements of said equipment in rehearsal preparation for his visit. Then when he himself comes, there is his AF1 747 and his Doomsday planes, landing at Stansted and moving off to other locations in the UK. Then you have all of that in reverse to take him and his equipment either back home or onto his next planned visit.

Lets not get into American overkill here. I'm not too bothered about our PM's transport arrangements at the moment quite frankly, again which are a miniscule fraction every year of a day's commute. Even though he is a top tier cunt.

Ted Kaczynski wrote about this line of thinking. It's easy to be informed about and worry about the small issues and forget the big ones.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:58 pm I hear of reports of both John Mayor and Tony Blair (both former UK PM's) using trains, and normal scheduled planes on many of their journeys.????

That was back when it was affordable. Now it's cheaper to fly if there's a plane going in that direction with some seats on it.

I just booked a flight to Iceland. It's cheaper than the train to Edinburgh...

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:27 pm That was back when it was affordable. Now it's cheaper to fly if there's a plane going in that direction with some seats on it.

I just booked a flight to Iceland. It's cheaper than the train to Edinburgh...

Hmm, that is a worrying statistic, so you are actually being part of the issue here, is a plane flying a few people to Iceland, greener than a train carrying hundreds to Scotland, somehow I doubt that. But what I find even more worrying is the justification that is actually cheaper to fly, so that makes it OK.

And also, its time to begin asking the serious questions about why is it cheaper to fly than to take a train, or to put it another way, why does a train ticket cost so much and also why is it a ticket purchased in the various manners that you buy a train ticket, vary so much in cost. It never used to be this way until we became so obsessed with private ownership, why is that?

Seriously, I wish you have a safe flight.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 3:26 pm

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:27 pm That was back when it was affordable. Now it's cheaper to fly if there's a plane going in that direction with some seats on it.

I just booked a flight to Iceland. It's cheaper than the train to Edinburgh...

Hmm, that is a worrying statistic, so you are actually being part of the issue here, is a plane flying a few people to Iceland, greener than a train carrying hundreds to Scotland, somehow I doubt that. But what I find even more worrying is the justification that is actually cheaper to fly, so that makes it OK.

And also, its time to begin asking the serious questions about why is it cheaper to fly than to take a train, or to put it another way, why does a train ticket cost so much and also why is it a ticket purchased in the various manners that you buy a train ticket, vary so much in cost. It never used to be this way until we became so obsessed with private ownership, why is that?

Seriously, I wish you have a safe flight.

Oh no it's horrible and I'm terrible for flying. I openly admit that. It is however unproductive to try and get the train to Iceland. They don't float very well.

But when you set a budget and you find domestic rail is more expensive than international flight, you have to think about things. Also it's cheaper staying in Reykjavík than it is in Edinburgh. And it turned out even cheaper if we rent a shitty little CO2 spewing RV. interlude while a sooty looking coughing arctic fox ambles across the page limping.

I think you're drawing conclusions without the facts. This is not a conspiracy of private ownership. Rail travel is priced correctly. Air travel is heavily subsidised. If you remove the subsidy then things look very different.

Going back to the point I've been making for years now: Travelling, regardless of the medium, is an expensive luxury that we built society on which will one day not be sustainable either financially or environmentally. Better get used to it now.

As for safe flight, as long as I don't have a farting Turk next to me this time I'm good

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 3:39 pm Going back to the point I've been making for years now: Travelling, regardless of the medium, is an expensive luxury that we built society on which will one day not be sustainable either financially or environmentally. Better get used to it now.

As for safe flight, as long as I don't have a farting Turk next to me this time I'm good

LMAO at the farting Turk, do you have a reason for saying that or is just something plucked out of the air (I'm referring to the Turk as opposed any other nationality here )

Things aren't all that clear when it comes to pricing up various means of transport, for instance because of the various little gotchya's with planning trips at short notice with regard to pricing structures, I have tried to be fair and used a factious date in the future of 5th August departing from either Heathrow, Kings Cross or Euston and going direct to Edinburgh airport or Wavely Station on a return ticket, returning on the 12th August. The results are amazing.

Flying.
cheapest is £92 and dearest is £301, standard class only used for this comparison. CO2 impact for a Boeing 737 per passenger for that return flight is 132Kg.

Train
Cheapest is £92.90 and dearest is £189.70. CO2 impact for a train per passenger for that same return is just 25Kg. Again, standard class only.

When you start to dig into this sh1t cloud it's amazing what you can glean from it, and TBH, can we actually believe half the statistics that we are bombarded with. It wasn't all that long ago we were all told that diesel was the fuel of the future, cleaner and was far less pollutions and had a higher energy density and was far safer to store and handle as it didn't have the volatility of petrol.

Well, yeah... compared to fucking coal.

mnem
Which we are now using to fuel "clean" EVs...

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 3:39 pm It is however unproductive to try and get the train to Iceland. They don't float very well.

Trains can float perfectly well, but there's no point unless there are rails at both ends of the water. That rules Iceland out.

But when you set a budget and you find domestic rail is more expensive than international flight, you have to think about things. Also it's cheaper staying in Reykjavík than it is in Edinburgh. And it turned out even cheaper if we rent a shitty little CO2 spewing RV. interlude while a sooty looking coughing arctic fox ambles across the page limping.

BEVs not suitable in Iceland? Why's that?

Make sure you have an escape route when the RV breaks down in Sprengisandur, or on the Kverkfjöll "road". Or starts drifting sideways a couple of hundred yards before reaching the hut in Þórsmörk.

Do see Skaftafell, and try to get to the top of Kristinatindar. I have a nice Brockenspectre picture of myself there (ask bd140, obviously!).

Birds can be dangerous there: puffins a few feet away on cliff tops (duh), arctic terns dive bombing you aggressively, and ask why local go around with broomsticks sticking above their heads.

Try to find some mávur in a restaurant. Quite pleasant to eat - and really good for annoying people when you get back, are out for a walk, see one and smack your lips.

bd139 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:27 pm <Boris> drives around in an armoured Range Rover due to the death threats after his predecessor's party set the press on him to try and discredit his quite reasonable policies.

If I bumped into BoJo or Cameron, I wouldn't make a death threat.

I would ask him if he owned a revolver, and if the answer was affirmative I'd offer to buy him a bottle of his favourite tipple and book a hotel room for one night. (For BoJo I would have to point out it would be a single room, which makes it less likely he would accept).