EV cars and the network

[Specmaster]

I just watched this Channel 4 documentary about why are cars getting so expensive, that's all cars, ICE and EV, even second-hand cars, its scary stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXkRg55PoOo

[bd139]

Yeah I paid £5000 for mine in 2017 because it was Citroen and on a Ford dealership forecourt and looked a bit embarrassing. It's worth £5500 now because it runs on farts, is ULEZ exempt, the road tax is bugger all (£26) and the insurance is bugger all (£190). Best investment in a car I've ever made.

[Zenith]

Wow, I hadn't even realised that was even an aspect, so that effectively also rules out a PHEV as well then? It makes you wonder if they can ever really ban ICE cars once these problems are brought out into the public eye, maybe as it gets closer to 2030 there might well be a hell of a lot of back peddling being done around the world.

All I see is a ridiculous scheme imposed by a government (that's all major parties, not just the Conservatives) which is to be charitable, far too ambitious and not at all thought through. I'd hazard a guess there wasn't an engineer in sight when they concocted this.

I agree with you there will be some drawing in of horns before 2030.

2030 was a stretch goal and we thought you'd be inspired by it, but you let yourselves down, yada yada.

[Zenith]

Yeah I paid £5000 for mine in 2017 because it was Citroen and on a Ford dealership forecourt and looked a bit embarrassing. It's worth £5500 now because it runs on farts, is ULEZ exempt, the road tax is bugger all (£26) and the insurance is bugger all (£190). Best investment in a car I've ever made.

Mine's a ULEZ compliant diesel. It does 62mpg mucking about and over 70mpg on a decent run. The road tax is zero. I bought it for just over 6 grand a couple of year's back and they look to go for over 7 grand now. At the time auctions, where I'd normally go for a motor, were closed. It was right at the end of the lockdowns when I bought it.

It's strange to find that a car bought from a dealer, is two years later undeniably worth more than you paid for it. You can see it happening, with say an AC Cobra etc, but not a Vauxhall, at least not a post war one.

[Specmaster]

I'll have to see what mine is worth now, I paid £13 grand for it back in 2016, I expect that it is still worth a fair chunk of that original price. In 2013, it was in the showroom at £32 grand, with a Euro 5 diesel engine, so it falls foul of the ULEZ charge, if it goes ahead, there is some major opposition to it.

[Zenith]

I'd always assumed that money put into a car was spent. Thoughts of its second hand value never occurred to me. After I bought this one from a dealer, for about a year after, I had emails begging me to trade it in.

My ideas on cars were formed by a friend, who for years, never paid more then £25 for one. Well, he started with a very handsome Austin Seven, for which he paid £40. It was sky blue and black. I remember it well. He's lamented not being able to hang onto it, but life imposes. He broke his £25 rule about 40 years back. His father in law couldn't stand seeing his daughter being driven around in old bangers, so financially encouraged him to buy an Austin Allegro, which was a disaster.

Although sound on cars and most other things, his choices on shotguns and rifles are appalling.

[Specmaster]

As if by magic following the bd139 post re the fire risk that EV's pose and that his building bans them outright because of the insurance angle, this recommendation popped into viewing suggestion, and it further drives home the high risks that these vehicles actually pose and in another video it was mentioned Tesla's and how they catch fire and because the car doors are electrically operated, the occupants have on some occasions found themselves locked inside a burning car but did eventually manage to force the door open and escape.

Faced with this kind of problem, there has to be loads more research done in how to handle a fire, and we could even see a possible y turn in the governments plans to ban ICE cars and switch to EV, not just here but maybe globally as well. There has to be so much that could be done to both clean up emissions at the tailpipe of ICE vehicles, but also dramatically increase their efficiency and thus reduce the amount of fossil fuel being used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8tLekZKWzw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwxZu3nVOZ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQxY2s-oIak

https://opensourcelab.dfki.de/the-red-b ... -for-cars/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_e ... _incidents

[bd139]

Worth noting that the Teslas do have a manual mechanical door release but no one knows exactly how to use them so they trust the "electronic" handles to do the job.

The problem here is the design is superfluous shite over the top of a logical mechanical design. Which is the entire problem with most stuff these days.

[tggzzz]

Accredited layers of guano? Yes.

But the other issue is not clearly labelling rarely used escape routes/!mechanisms.

The phrase "What could possibly go wrong?" is key in both the literal sense and the ironic sense.

[bd139]

Accredited layers of guano? Yes.

But the other issue is not clearly labelling rarely used escape routes/!mechanisms.

The phrase "What could possibly go wrong?" is key in both the literal sense and the ironic sense.

Well convention is the most important thing. You'd expect the door handle next to you to open the door. The more complicated you make that problem the more likely someone is to fail at it. A fine example is every Tesla owner has to explain to people how to use the outside door handles before they get in their model S. It's not obvious!

[tggzzz]

Accredited layers of guano? Yes.

But the other issue is not clearly labelling rarely used escape routes/!mechanisms.

The phrase "What could possibly go wrong?" is key in both the literal sense and the ironic sense.

Well convention is the most important thing. You'd expect the door handle next to you to open the door. The more complicated you make that problem the more likely someone is to fail at it. A fine example is every Tesla owner has to explain to people how to use the outside door handles before they get in their model S. It's not obvious!

Clearly Tesla is channelling Microsoft, viz changing the Windows look and feel with monotonous regularity.

(I hate flat GUIs; you never know what you can/can't click/push/scrape/gawp at)

[bd139]

Accredited layers of guano? Yes.

But the other issue is not clearly labelling rarely used escape routes/!mechanisms.

The phrase "What could possibly go wrong?" is key in both the literal sense and the ironic sense.

Well convention is the most important thing. You'd expect the door handle next to you to open the door. The more complicated you make that problem the more likely someone is to fail at it. A fine example is every Tesla owner has to explain to people how to use the outside door handles before they get in their model S. It's not obvious!

Clearly Tesla is channelling Microsoft, viz changing the Windows look and feel with monotonous regularity.

(I hate flat GUIs; you never know what you can/can't click/push/scrape/gawp at)

That's another one of my pet hates.

On a positive note, that stupid thing appears to by dying off slowly now. I've seen things with buttons again!

[tggzzz]

Well convention is the most important thing. You'd expect the door handle next to you to open the door. The more complicated you make that problem the more likely someone is to fail at it. A fine example is every Tesla owner has to explain to people how to use the outside door handles before they get in their model S. It's not obvious!

Clearly Tesla is channelling Microsoft, viz changing the Windows look and feel with monotonous regularity.

(I hate flat GUIs; you never know what you can/can't click/push/scrape/gawp at)

That's another one of my pet hates.

On a positive note, that stupid thing appears to by dying off slowly now. I've seen things with buttons again!

Do you mean Windows or flatties? I know the former is disappearing down the hole of its overcomplexity and fiddling with itself, but I hope you also mean the latter. No doubt we will soon be seeing Microsoft Bob like skeuomorphic GUIs

[bd139]

Clearly Tesla is channelling Microsoft, viz changing the Windows look and feel with monotonous regularity.

(I hate flat GUIs; you never know what you can/can't click/push/scrape/gawp at)

That's another one of my pet hates.

On a positive note, that stupid thing appears to by dying off slowly now. I've seen things with buttons again!

Do you mean Windows or flatties? I know the former is disappearing down the hole of its overcomplexity and fiddling with itself, but I hope you also mean the latter. No doubt we will soon be seeing Microsoft Bob like skeuomorphic GUIs

Well some of the windows 11 stuff has reverted back to some 3d relief. It's a slow process.

I'm not going to knock Microsoft too badly at the moment. They're sort of going in the right direction from a platform perspective (bar telemetry and crapware upsells - watch this space I have a project on the go). Apple have stagnated now, started regressing and have started increasing cost to levels which make even me go pfft. Linux doesn't run photoshop.

[tggzzz]

That's another one of my pet hates.

On a positive note, that stupid thing appears to by dying off slowly now. I've seen things with buttons again!

Do you mean Windows or flatties? I know the former is disappearing down the hole of its overcomplexity and fiddling with itself, but I hope you also mean the latter. No doubt we will soon be seeing Microsoft Bob like skeuomorphic GUIs

Well some of the windows 11 stuff has reverted back to some 3d relief. It's a slow process.

I'm not going to knock Microsoft too badly at the moment. They're sort of going in the right direction from a platform perspective (bar telemetry and crapware upsells - watch this space I have a project on the go). Apple have stagnated now, started regressing and have started increasing cost to levels which make even me go pfft. Linux doesn't run photoshop.

Apparently Win11 still contains some Win3.1 GUI elements...
"And last, but certainly not least, in the ODBC Data Sources utility there is a Windows 3.1-styled folder selection window!"
https://ntdotdev.wordpress.com/2023/01/ ... indows-11/

[bd139]

Do you mean Windows or flatties? I know the former is disappearing down the hole of its overcomplexity and fiddling with itself, but I hope you also mean the latter. No doubt we will soon be seeing Microsoft Bob like skeuomorphic GUIs

Well some of the windows 11 stuff has reverted back to some 3d relief. It's a slow process.

I'm not going to knock Microsoft too badly at the moment. They're sort of going in the right direction from a platform perspective (bar telemetry and crapware upsells - watch this space I have a project on the go). Apple have stagnated now, started regressing and have started increasing cost to levels which make even me go pfft. Linux doesn't run photoshop.

Apparently Win11 still contains some Win3.1 GUI elements...
"And last, but certainly not least, in the ODBC Data Sources utility there is a Windows 3.1-styled folder selection window!"
https://ntdotdev.wordpress.com/2023/01/ ... indows-11/

That's sort of true. Those particular bits came from Win32 which despite looking like Windows 3.1 were clean room implemented on top of the original Windows NT. They're still there if you call the right APIs. They are deprecated though and will disappear at some point in the future. They are slowly removing some of the legacy stuff at the moment. Goodbye DCOM, IIS, MSMQ, ODBC, VBA soon.

The future, for this week at least, is WinUI apparently which is an evolution of WPF. It's similar to GTK/Vala on Linux.

[mnementh]

And remember, MS Powertoys: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/ still works, as well as Administrative Tools and the MMC.

Type either term into the search bar they will come up as an option you can jump to.

mnem

[Specmaster]

Has the bubble burst? Raises some very good and valid points, It seems that second-hand EV cars are extremely hard to sell, nobody it seems wants them and the final burden of having to pay to dispose of the batteries in an environment friendly way is going to fall to the poorest in society, who are going to be the last buyer of said cars and the disposal costs will greatly outweigh the value and quite likely, the price they paid for the car before the battery died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4l4PbwB8i8

[AVGresponding]

I thought the manufacturer does, like they do with ICE cars?

[bd139]

Has the bubble burst? Raises some very good and valid points, It seems that second-hand EV cars are extremely hard to sell, nobody it seems wants them and the final burden of having to pay to dispose of the batteries in an environment friendly way is going to fall to the poorest in society, who are going to be the last buyer of said cars and the disposal costs will greatly outweigh the value and quite likely, the price they paid for the car before the battery died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4l4PbwB8i8

The problem with the second hand value is the average age of a car in the UK is 8.6 years. The average warranty of an EV is 6 to 8 years. After that the risk/value proposition is terrible because the incidental repair risk is around £15,000 for a failed battery which is more than the entire average value of most 8.6 year old cars in the UK.

There is no bubble. Just stupid and rich people are buying new cars. The second hand market is a comedy.

[Specmaster]

Has the bubble burst? Raises some very good and valid points, It seems that second-hand EV cars are extremely hard to sell, nobody it seems wants them and the final burden of having to pay to dispose of the batteries in an environment friendly way is going to fall to the poorest in society, who are going to be the last buyer of said cars and the disposal costs will greatly outweigh the value and quite likely, the price they paid for the car before the battery died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4l4PbwB8i8

The problem with the second hand value is the average age of a car in the UK is 8.6 years. The average warranty of an EV is 6 to 8 years. After that the risk/value proposition is terrible because the incidental repair risk is around £15,000 for a failed battery which is more than the entire average value of most 8.6 year old cars in the UK.

There is no bubble. Just stupid and rich people are buying new cars. The second hand market is a comedy.

Yep that 2015/6 BMW EV went for just £1500, my Škoda 2013, cost me £13000 7 years ago, and still worth today £10,500, and is unlikely to get a repair bill that is higher than its current value, the engines are bulletproof as long as its been serviced correctly and so are the gearboxes if the oil is changed at the prescribed intervals. Its already outlived an EV powered car with nothing more than regular 20,000 or 12 months service, hands down a winner.

[Specmaster]

I thought the manufacturer does, like they do with ICE cars?

Correct just as with a ICE car, its the last owner who bears that responsibility, but unlike ICE cars, which normally still have some residual value so the scrapyards will pay something, you will have to pay them to recycle your EV correctly.

[mnementh]

...There is no bubble. Just stupid and rich people are buying new cars. The second hand market is a comedy.

More like a crime story.

mnem
*currently printing parts for his own little EV*

[Specmaster]

More information about the Buxton video. Also further insight into living with electric cars, and despite what some may think, spoiler alert he does actually like his car, as I suspected, his dissatisfaction is all about the fact that you are being forced into them and the failings of the infrastructure and how you are being treated as second class citizens when it comes to charging points, not enough of them, most have zero protection against the elements etc, whereas us ICE drivers are well protected against rain and snow etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuGpnNna_7Q

[Specmaster]

I don't know if what this person is claiming is true or not, currently I'm not bothered either way, but... if it is true then its certainly not good news is it?

He claims that according to the ZAP app which is the app that all EV owners are using or should be using to locate charging locations across the country, the number of points has dropped dramatically, WTF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9shTLdoueJo