Test Equipment Anonymous

tggzzz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:49 pm

Zenith wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:35 am

tggzzz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:50 am There will be more people wanting smart meters, since soon you will be offered discounts if you shift electricity consumption away from peak times. Given the price increases, many people will want that.

There was Economy 7, which was promoted for years to use electricity produced in the small hours of the morning. Storage heaters were promoted to use with it but they were not popular because they didn't perform well and they were inconvenient. How much money could you save by running your washing machine in the middle of the night? If you were running an electric pottery kiln it would have made sense.

I think it's more likely they'll be used to control demand as the grid is put under stress because of unreliable renewables.

Just so.

The form and effectiveness of smart meter "load shifting" is TBD; the devil will be in the details of the cash and how it it determined that you have shifted some load.

They've been doing the same exact thing with thermostats here for over a decade... yeah, sure your gas/oil/electric supplier will give you a fancy digital T-stat with programmable schedule that arguably really is a great thing for your personal comfort, your energy consumption and for reducing the overall load on a energy delivery system that is chronically overloaded due to bean-counters' refusal to upgrade infrastructure until shit burns down (and yes, this even applies to oil, just a different mechanism) from overloading...

But at the same time, it is equipped with a cell-MODEM so they can reset your t-stat to much higher temps during peak AC demand (precisely when you want it doing its job so you aren't cooked to death all afternoon) or to much lower temps in the heating season for the same reasons.

And just how much they can fuxxor your personal comfort is always buried quite deep in the energy packages they offer you with brilliant flashing "Punch The Monkey and Win" type adverts that jump up & down like a Jack Russel terrier howling for your attention every renewal period.

I've had 3 such T-stats when I lived in Tejas; every one I unplugged the cellular module from the mainboard.

mnem

that noizze...

Zenith wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:35 am If you were running an electric pottery kiln it would have made sense.

Poor example. There are very few kiln firings that last for a short enough time to happen entirely during one night's off peak period. SWMBO hasn't done any ceramics for a while, but when she was she used to load the kiln in the evening, get up early to fire the kiln (say 6-7AM), and it wouldn't go off until 10PM and that was for relatively low fired materials. A small porcelain firing could be 24 hours. This is with a pretty small kiln, bigger ones take even longer.

We had storage radiators at university. They were a right pain in the arse, and it wasn't unusual to see all the windows open in a flat in winter because a relatively mild day would mean that it was stiflingly hot inside when you got up in the morning. They were the only source of heating and the only control you had was over the fans that forced air through them, if the fans weren't broken which they often were. It was always either too hot or too cold, never just 'right' except by happenstance. Quite a few people popped out the fuse on the fused spur they were installed on and substituted their own electric fan heaters plugged into the ring main to get away from the tyranny of centrally controlled storage heaters - cue the breakers on the flat's ring mains tripping on a monotonous basis.

This seems to be turning into a bitch and moan thread. Let's see....do I have something to bitch about? No. Gee....I must be mellowing in my old age. Unlikely that will happen.

tggzzz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:50 am Well... yes. No surprises there, at least to me or anybody who thought about the subject.

If it can be done by companies, then it can be done incorrectly by companies due to (say) an internal billing cockup. Fortunately such cockups never occur - do they?

There are two reasons why I originally refused to have a 'smart' meter:

1) No possibility of getting cut off because "the computer says no" without any human interaction. If you want to cut me off you need to get a court order to come into my house, and I have an opportunity to wave receipts or bank statements in the face of the living human being who's come to cut me off, and if necessary point out that if they insist on still acting when they know that the basis for the court order was flawed that they might incur personal liability, both civil and criminal.

2) Not 'if' but 'when' fine grained readings of individual demand are leaked and used for criminal purposes - e.g. Unexpectedly low demand for a week in August tells Terry the traitor in the electricity company that you're on holiday who tells Billy the burglar to target your property. If Terry and Billy are any good this has already happened without being detected, I can almost guarantee it.

Now there's also a third reason - those bloody adverts where they've abused the image of Albert Einstein to promote smart meters. Brought to you by the same breed of marketing people who'd electrocute elephants to demonstrate the superiority of their electric company.

MED6753 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:12 pm This seems to be turning into a bitch and moan thread. Let's see....do I have something to bitch about? No. Gee....I must be mellowing in my old age. Unlikely that will happen.

Quick, someone get the EMTs over to Mike's place, there's something seriously wrong with him.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:13 pm

tggzzz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:50 am Well... yes. No surprises there, at least to me or anybody who thought about the subject.

If it can be done by companies, then it can be done incorrectly by companies due to (say) an internal billing cockup. Fortunately such cockups never occur - do they?

There are two reasons why I originally refused to have a 'smart' meter:

1) No possibility of getting cut off because "the computer says no" without any human interaction. If you want to cut me off you need to get a court order to come into my house, and I have an opportunity to wave receipts or bank statements in the face of the living human being who's come to cut me off, and if necessary point out that if they insist on still acting when they know that the basis for the court order was flawed that they might incur personal liability, both civil and criminal.

2) Not 'if' but 'when' fine grained readings of individual demand are leaked and used for criminal purposes - e.g. Unexpectedly low demand for a week in August tells Terry the traitor in the electricity company that you're on holiday who tells Billy the burglar to target your property. If Terry and Billy are any good this has already happened without being detected, I can almost guarantee it.

Yup, I've argued the latter too. But I tend to think the malefactor would be in a company sub-sub-sub-contracted to look after the billing system.

Now there's also a third reason - those bloody adverts where they've abused the image of Albert Einstein to promote smart meters. Brought to you by the same breed of marketing people who'd electrocute elephants to demonstrate the superiority of their electric company.

How old are you? While the relevant photons/phonons might interact with your retina/cochlea, do the resulting neural impulses still reach your conscious thought processes? That hasn't happened to me in decades, I'm pleased to say.

In this particular case I'm vaguely aware of there having been some adverts which paid copyright fees for using Einstein's likeness (what?! how?!), but until you told me I had zero idea what they were failing to flog me!

tggzzz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:54 pm Yup, I've argued the latter too. But I tend to think the malefactor would be in a company sub-sub-sub-contracted to look after the billing system.

All the data from all the smart meters passes through "Smart DCC Ltd" a company instigated by government and wholly owned by Crapita plc. With Crapita's spotless record as an outsourcer of government services I'm sure that the data is perfectly and properly protected and there are no risks whatsoever from centralising all these data flows though a single central bottleneck.

I had no idea it was Capita involved in it. Insta-shit show. I don't have a smart meter and don't want one. It's not smart.

I have a smart meter. Not optional. Required. End of story.

I have a reader attached to it. It produces useful data:

Starting Dec 1, I will have hourly pricing. It's either that, or I get to pay a horribly inflated fixed price (in effect carrying the entire risk of the power supply company). To be able to navigate the uncertainties of extremely volatile pricing, I will simply have to keep an eye on the hourly price and make adjustments to my usage. Metering is important in this.

Here, only the tinfoil people run around in circles and are upset, mostly because the power meter has a M2M cellular modem.

First RIFA experience was ~20 years ago when wifey was just starting that years batch of Christmas fruit cakes of which she makes at least a dozen as gifts.
Our prized Kenwood Chef mixer (a wedding gift) spewed magic smoke part way through a mix to the absolute horror of the wife.
Luckily a mate nearby had one the same he could lend us until I installed new RIFA's in our prized wedding gift that still churns out cakes to this day, 40 years after we first received it.

mansaxel wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:01 pm Starting Dec 1, I will have hourly pricing. It's either that, or I get to pay a horribly inflated fixed price (in effect carrying the entire risk of the power supply company). To be able to navigate the uncertainties of extremely volatile pricing, I will simply have to keep an eye on the hourly price and make adjustments to my usage. Metering is important in this.

I have enough problems without having to worry about over-paying for my electricity if I don't keep an eye on it hour by hour. Surely there's got to be a better model of demand management that doesn't require ordinary consumers to be exposed to such a level of intricacy. What's the betting this gets abused to over-charge people who don't pay minute attention to what's going on?

If they pulled this on me I'd be very tempted to go overboard on solar and batteries to get predictable costs and even maybe game them, and charge batteries when demand is so low that they have to either shed capacity or lower their prices to below cost (The latter has sometimes actual happened here if demand falls below the nuclear baseload generation - you can't just turn off a nuclear power station and the generated power has to go somewhere.).

Cerebus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:57 pm

mansaxel wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:01 pm Starting Dec 1, I will have hourly pricing. It's either that, or I get to pay a horribly inflated fixed price (in effect carrying the entire risk of the power supply company). To be able to navigate the uncertainties of extremely volatile pricing, I will simply have to keep an eye on the hourly price and make adjustments to my usage. Metering is important in this.

I have enough problems without having to worry about over-paying for my electricity if I don't keep an eye on it hour by hour. Surely there's got to be a better model of demand management that doesn't require ordinary consumers to be exposed to such a level of intricacy. What's the betting this gets abused to over-charge people who don't pay minute attention to what's going on?

If they pulled this on me I'd be very tempted to go overboard on solar and batteries to get predictable costs and even maybe game them, and charge batteries when demand is so low that they have to either shed capacity or lower their prices to below cost (The latter has sometimes actual happened here if demand falls below the nuclear baseload generation - you can't just turn off a nuclear power station and the generated power has to go somewhere.).

Well they market it as a good thing. Take control of your energy bills! When technology is introduced, you have to ask who is benefiting from it. What is the real return of investment. The only ROI on smart meters is reduction of reading costs and accurate billing. Of course accurate billing only ever benefits the supplier.

Honestly I'd be quite happy to identify incidental costs i.e what's draining my electricity. But that's something which can be done very easily through understanding, observation and elimination all of which are lost arts. Ergo the only logical conclusion is exploitation somewhere.

As you put though, once you know the rules and understand the game, the art becomes exploiting those with a middle finger raised proudly.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:57 pm
I have enough problems without having to worry about over-paying for my electricity if I don't keep an eye on it hour by hour. Surely there's got to be a better model of demand management that doesn't require ordinary consumers to be exposed to such a level of intricacy. What's the betting this gets abused to over-charge people who don't pay minute attention to what's going on?

Oh, it's a slightly complex affair that combines the recent eastern Europe unpleasantness, French nuclear power plant maintenance issues, German and Swedish anti-nuclear policy, weather, and some good old NIMBYism concerning HV transmission lines.

We have an abundance of electrical power in Sweden. Certainly so on a yearly basis -- we are a net exporter, and have reliably been so for a long time. The fact that we're an oblong country with lots of generation in the north and lots of consumption in the south, combined with even more possible consumption in Germany, makes for transmission lines being needed. People don't want them in their vicinity, though.
This makes it necessary to split Sweden in 4 different pricing areas; the further south, the more expensive (I'm in the 2nd most expensive one). The addition of HVDC transmission systems to Germany, Baltic countries and Poland increases the imbalance in the system as soon as something makes power expensive on the continent, because even with our internal transmission difficulties, we're still cheaper than Central Europe, but since we're interconnected the price difference is equalised, giving us higher prices. Combine this with the decommissioning of nuclear, and the addition of wind (and some solar, but offshore wind is the really big one) creating a situation where we sometimes, as in the UK in your example below, at times go borderline negative on price. At other times, not so much. The relative absence of controllable generation in some areas of the grid is a major driver here.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:57 pm If they pulled this on me I'd be very tempted to go overboard on solar and batteries to get predictable costs and even maybe game them, and charge batteries when demand is so low that they have to either shed capacity or lower their prices to below cost (The latter has sometimes actual happened here if demand falls below the nuclear baseload generation - you can't just turn off a nuclear power station and the generated power has to go somewhere.).

Yes, if possible this is what people ought to do. Because it would not only be sticking it to the man, it would also help with peak demand. And peak demand is the part that requires capacity.

I have decided to try hourly pricing for one year, to get a feel for it. Also:

• My current price to the power broker (not same as power company) is 0,89 SEK per kWh. Fixed.
• Current 1-year term fixed prices are at 5-6 times that. I'm NOT going there.
• Those who signed up at 4-5 SEK per kWh certainly are "happy" since the current prediction is that if winter stays OK, not too cold, spot market power prices are going to be more bearable than predicted as little as one month ago.
• Reasons mostly are CNG/LPG being more available than feared, people saving power and using less, and slightly better prognosis on French nuclear generation.
• With a windy winter it will be mostly bearable.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:36 pm
All the data from all the smart meters passes through "Smart DCC Ltd" a company instigated by government and wholly owned by Crapita plc. With Crapita's spotless record as an outsourcer of government services I'm sure that the data is perfectly and properly protected and there are no risks whatsoever from centralising all these data flows though a single central bottleneck.

Over the years I've had many guarded discussions with friends about whether they trust the government or not. What the "Five a day" business is based on and whether or not there are serious rackets involved in pushing it. I really don't like talking politics with friends, or much on here. However, politics is the way in which power, and largely wealth, is gained and dispensed. I'm inclined to think we are being sold a pup and being pressured into accepting a new order of things, which no one would accept as a straightforward proposition.

I fear for what is going to happen this Winter when the temperatures consistently remain below freezing. Most rural residences here heat with fuel oil or propane. Some with natural gas. And obviously you have the folks who supplement or entirely heat their residences with wood. But for those with little financial means, such as seniors with fixed incomes, I can guarantee the number of "unattended deaths" is going to reach record levels. Why? The price of fuel oil last year at this time was approximately $3.40/US gallon. Right now the price is somewhere around $5.50/US gallon and rising. The typical fuel oil tank holds 275 US gallons. Do the math. That's over $1500 USD if empty. In real cold weather you may get deliveries in as little as every month. And the minimum fuel oil companies will deliver is 150 gallons or $825 USD. There will be those who just cannot afford that and the result is freezing to death. It's not going to be pretty.

Funny the discussion about smart meters. The power company came out today because they've been pestered by my smart meter that there's something wrong with the meter. On one rare occasion, I logged into my account to see what kind of usage data I could see from the smart meter, but it had nothing. I don't remember how many years ago that was. , Maybe now it'll actually start showing some data.

bitseeker wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:44 am Funny the discussion about smart meters. The power company came out today because they've been pestered by my smart meter that there's something wrong with the meter. On one rare occasion, I logged into my account to see what kind of usage data I could see from the smart meter, but it had nothing. I don't remember how many years ago that was. , Maybe now it'll actually start showing some data.

Oh dear, let's hope they don't assess your usage and back charge you.

We had an old 3ph meter down the shed that got an overload with a switchboard short but that was back in the days when a chap dropped by every month to read it....he noticed it wasn't clocking but we were on a monthly minimum usage charge so they didn't worry and just sent a chap out to replace it.

My concern on variable rate is that rather than rewarding those who shift their loads with reductions they will penalise those who don't (or can't) with increases (and more profit)
Smart meters are also the reason that the 3G phone system will outlast 4G, in the UK at least.

Anyway back to TEA. I got this little beauty for work. It's a bit like a updated HP 54622D, one of my favorites. Seems pretty good. Very small but it's in a tiny "workshop" in what is mainly a "showpiece" new office. No tatty boat anchors there.

Robert wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:42 am

It's a bit like a updated HP 54622D, one of my favorites. Seems pretty good. Very small but it's in a tiny "workshop" in what is mainly a "showpiece" new office. No tatty boat anchors there.

Who you calling "tatty"? I'll give you a "tatty".

Show us the corpse cupboard med

Robert wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:42 am My concern on variable rate is that rather than rewarding those who shift their loads with reductions they will penalise those who don't (or can't) with increases (and more profit)
Smart meters are also the reason that the 3G phone system will outlast 4G, in the UK at least.

Anyway back to TEA. I got this little beauty for work.
RS-RTC1002-scope.jpg

It's a bit like a updated HP 54622D, one of my favorites. Seems pretty good. Very small but it's in a tiny "workshop" in what is mainly a "showpiece" new office. No tatty boat anchors there.

It looks like actual R&S product, not rebranded Siglent like mine. Can it be cracked, or are you stuck with 54621D performance?

I kindof like the "always on" sig gen tabs on the front panel, tho...

mnem

*puts on best Jon Lovitz whiny, annoyed, nasal tone of voice*

bintches...

mnem
hey, bitseeker... I weren't even tryin' ta bust shit nor nuttin'...

I've not looked for means to upgrade. The BW is software locked. This one is pretty well specified already.

Robert .

Today was the day planned for the FTTP broadband install and so it was, engineer arrived on time and the whole installation took about 45 minutes to 1 hour and they stated that it could take about 3 hours to complete, but it was quick and easy to install, even though the modem and hub units had to be installed in my sons bedroom. All cables were run outside and very neatly clipped to the wall, included was 2 digital cordless phones that use the internet connection and these phones can do some pretty clever things, like if a phone is in use, you can still use the other phone to both receive and make calls, so thats handy. There is a dedicated button to block calls and you can also set up 3 way calls and even divert calls to another number or a mobile, has 15 different ringtones to select from, so that you allocate certain ringtones to friends and family and leave the standard tone for normal people, so you don't have to dash to the phone in case its a family member for instance.

The downside and there is one, if you have an alarm system, or a monitoring system for elderly folk, these might work on the digital system, especially in the case of a power cut, so emergency services cannot be contacted, you will need to work around those events by other means. They are working on it though, but all the current phone systems will be deactivated at some point in the future I'm told, and these new phones will be rolled out to everyone with a landline.

Speed is being optimised and the service takes around a week for the equipment to find the optimum setting for the line, so more on actual speeds later, but for now its seems to around 450MBps download and 50MBps upload, considerable improvement over the Virgin media speeds I was getting.

Also to note, you are now no longer likely to be victim of the "Virgin cabinet left open and now used as a tramp urinal" problem