Test Equipment Anonymous

Oops even more has been discovered, make of this what you will, but I first learnt of this about a year ago and now it seems very likely that this is going to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7zcTQYJaB8

Also this supports what he is saying in this video, regarding road charging.

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/roads/ur ... overnment/

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm He claims that according to the ZAP app which is the app that all EV owners are using or should be using to locate charging locations across the country, the number of points has dropped dramatically, WTF

That's a bit like saying:
1) That Bing, which all net users are using or should be using to search the web, has
2) dramatically dropped the number of results that it returns for "random subject"

The number of charge points show by a random, non-definative, specialist search tool doesn't tell you anything other more or less than that search tool has problems of some sort. I've no idea where the idea that Zap Map is "the [my emphasis] app that all EV owners are using or should be using to locate charging locations across the country" has come from, but there's certainly been no edict, neither papal, ministerial, nor from manufacturers, to that effect.

Personally, as someone who has actually tried to make practical use of Zap Map, I've found it to be less than reliable and as far as I can tell it seems to mostly consist of crowd-sourced data.

Implicitly suggesting that any reliable conclusions about the state of the world might be drawn from changes in Zap Map is foolish.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 4:08 pm

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm He claims that according to the ZAP app which is the app that all EV owners are using or should be using to locate charging locations across the country, the number of points has dropped dramatically, WTF

That's a bit like saying:
1) That Bing, which all net users are using or should be using to search the web, has
2) dramatically dropped the number of results that it returns for "random subject"

The number of charge points show by a random, non-definative, specialist search tool doesn't tell you anything other more or less than that search tool has problems of some sort. I've no idea where the idea that Zap Map is "the [my emphasis] app that all EV owners are using or should be using to locate charging locations across the country" has come from, but there's certainly been no edict, neither papal, ministerial, nor from manufacturers, to that effect.

Personally, as someone who has actually tried to make practical use of Zap Map, I've found it to be less than reliable and as far as I can tell it seems to mostly consist of crowd-sourced data.

Implicitly suggesting that any reliable conclusions about the state of the world might be drawn from changes in Zap Map is foolish.

So what is the definitive app that EV drivers should be relying on, it is not ZAP, which is an application that you yourself seemed to suggest that another EV driver should have been using to plan his trip to ensure that he could actually get to a charging point in order to recharge his battery.

Post by Cerebus » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:16 pm
"The charging points didn't fade away in the night. The possibility that some charging points might be out of action didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere (which is why people use facilities like zap map, where users will leave a note if there's problems with an individual charger)."

You actually know more than most of us about charging points, as you own a PHEV, so what app/system do you use, although I suspect that maybe you not have attempted to do a long journey in pure EV mode, and if you did but were unable to find a charge point, could always elect to fire up the petrol engine and use that to continue driving, but drivers of pure EV don't have that luxury, so do you know of anything that is reliable in use?

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 5:35 pm So what is the definitive app that EV drivers should be relying on, it is not ZAP, which is an application that you yourself seemed to suggest that another EV driver should have been using to plan his trip to ensure that he could actually get to a charging point in order to recharge his battery.

It's nothing to do with the wooly thinking of drawing conclusions about the real world from the changes in a single application, but as you want to raise a strawman, let me knock it flat on its back for you. What is the definitive internet search engine? The obvious answer is "none". So why should their be a definitive app for finding charge points? And what bearing does it have given that any app is clearly not a reliable place to draw any conclusions from, for reasons that ought to be all too clear?

If you want to find data on charge point growth (or decline) go to primary sources. Find the networks who own the charge points, go to their websites, or call their PR people, and ask them how many they have. Then add the numbers up. Or at least find a decent secondary source like a survey already done, by respectable researchers, with respectable methodology, and use that. But don't use a 4th order effect of a tertiary source that may have its own reasons for including or excluding any number of networks charge points from its lists to suggest that there's something odd going on. That's one step away from reading auguries, and although divination might be a plausible explanation for government policy, it's not a recommended information gathering practice.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 1:30 am

Specmaster wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 5:35 pm So what is the definitive app that EV drivers should be relying on, it is not ZAP, which is an application that you yourself seemed to suggest that another EV driver should have been using to plan his trip to ensure that he could actually get to a charging point in order to recharge his battery.

It's nothing to do with the wooly thinking of drawing conclusions about the real world from the changes in a single application, but as you want to raise a strawman, let me knock it flat on its back for you. What is the definitive internet search engine? The obvious answer is "none". So why should their be a definitive app for finding charge points? And what bearing does it have given that any app is clearly not a reliable place to draw any conclusions from, for reasons that ought to be all too clear?

If you want to find data on charge point growth (or decline) go to primary sources. Find the networks who own the charge points, go to their websites, or call their PR people, and ask them how many they have. Then add the numbers up. Or at least find a decent secondary source like a survey already done, by respectable researchers, with respectable methodology, and use that. But don't use a 4th order effect of a tertiary source that may have its own reasons for including or excluding any number of networks charge points from its lists to suggest that there's something odd going on. That's one step away from reading auguries, and although divination might be a plausible explanation for government policy, it's not a recommended information gathering practice.

I cannot fathom the point about the developer of an application conveniently dropping or removing loads of points from their app, if that is what has happened, once word gets out that their app is nowhere as good as they claim, people would steer clear of it and their business model falls over.

Bear in mind that I do not drive or have any access to any form of an EV vehicle, so I have zero interest in researching for an app. Prior to you mentioning this ZAP app previously I had never heard of it, but since then I have seen in blogs its the only one that anyone mentions, presumably the different charger companies have their own apps, but ZAP apparently covers them all. I took it as you threw that particular app's name into the earlier discussion that it was "the" app to have, coming as it did, from a person who own an EV and is therefore seen as a bit of an authority on these matters compared to someone who only fully understands ICE vehicles.

Reading between the lines of what you appear to be saying is that an EV driver cannot reasonably rely on these apps until such time as charge points become as common as petrol/diesel pumps at filling stations across the country. So in order to be sure of not running out of charge on trips other than local ones, that drivers really need to top up their charge level at almost every opportunity along their route as they are unable to rely on the app and therefore plan their battery top-ups to ensure they do not get stranded??

Boy, that would great fun, like having a passenger with an extremely weak bladder and have to find every public toilet on route, i.e., calling in every filling station along the highway between starting point and destination in order to avoid an unpleasant accident.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 8:19 am Reading between the lines of what you appear to be saying is that an EV driver cannot ...

There's your problem, I'm clearly and explicitly talking about your methodology and you drawing conclusions from inappropriate sources of data. You seem to have missed the point in its entirety.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:04 pm There's your problem, I'm clearly and explicitly talking about your methodology and you drawing conclusions from inappropriate sources of data. You seem to have missed the point in its entirety.

You believe what ever you want to, but the fact still remains that EV cars are not, as yet, the ideal solution for anybody other than those in a city or large town where there is a far greater chance of finding a charge point when you need one, where the vehicles are only ever going to be doing short local journeys. You earlier made the statement, that they can usually be found in supermarket car parks. I seriously doubt that most supermarkets would welcome loads of EV cars queueing for a point and robbing their main stream customers of parking spaces so they can do their weekly shopping.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:37 pm but the fact still remains that EV cars are not, as yet, the ideal solution for anybody other than those in a city or large town where there is a far greater chance of finding a charge point when you need one, where the vehicles are only ever going to be doing short local journeys.

This is not true. Having now driven an EV for extended distances (1000+ miles) over a relatively short period (10 days, not all of them mobile), in desert, rural and urban environment, granted all of these well suited to motoring because they're in the USA, I can testify that yes, one has to charge, and sometimes it is inconvenient, but at 3 charges a day, (morning, midday, evening) one can keep driving the rest of the time. Yes, this was a Tesla, and SuperChargers are the state of the art in fast charging, but this is degrees of difference, not fundamental problems.

Also, the navigation in EV's more often than not has an up to date (it knew of construction work that blocked us from using one planned supercharger, and re-routed us accordingly, not to mention it also knows how many free stalls a charging site has as one approaches it) idea of charging point location and availability, and the computer will tell you where to charge en route and what this will leave you with in charge on arrival -- it is integrated and the route will be planned for you accordingly.

It works and it is here, now. At a price I'm personally not interested to pay, because I'll rather buy TE and excellent wines for my money, and keep driving my old car which I've paid in full from my savings account. But it is patently false to state that it is not being done, now.

viewtopic.php?t=167

My solution is to keep a charged spare in my backpack.

mnem
"...spam, spam, spam, spam, SPAMMITY-SPAM-M-M-M!!!"

Specmaster wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:37 pm

Cerebus wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:04 pm There's your problem, I'm clearly and explicitly talking about your methodology and you drawing conclusions from inappropriate sources of data. You seem to have missed the point in its entirety.

You believe what ever you want to, but the fact still remains that EV cars are not, as yet, the ideal solution for anybody other than those in a city or large town where there is a far greater chance of finding a charge point when you need one, where the vehicles are only ever going to be doing short local journeys. You earlier made the statement, that they can usually be found in supermarket car parks. I seriously doubt that most supermarkets would welcome loads of EV cars queueing for a point and robbing their main stream customers of parking spaces so they can do their weekly shopping.

Like I said, you missed the point entirely. I'm criticising your scientific methodology (or strictly speaking it's absence in this case), and you're still banging on as if I was expressing an opinion on EVs.

mansaxel wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 8:55 pm

Specmaster wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:37 pm but the fact still remains that EV cars are not, as yet, the ideal solution for anybody other than those in a city or large town where there is a far greater chance of finding a charge point when you need one, where the vehicles are only ever going to be doing short local journeys.

This is not true. Having now driven an EV for extended distances (1000+ miles) over a relatively short period (10 days, not all of them mobile), in desert, rural and urban environment, granted all of these well suited to motoring because they're in the USA, I can testify that yes, one has to charge, and sometimes it is inconvenient, but at 3 charges a day, (morning, midday, evening) one can keep driving the rest of the time. Yes, this was a Tesla, and SuperChargers are the state of the art in fast charging, but this is degrees of difference, not fundamental problems.

Also, the navigation in EV's more often than not has an up to date (it knew of construction work that blocked us from using one planned supercharger, and re-routed us accordingly, not to mention it also knows how many free stalls a charging site has as one approaches it) idea of charging point location and availability, and the computer will tell you where to charge en route and what this will leave you with in charge on arrival -- it is integrated and the route will be planned for you accordingly.

It works and it is here, now. At a price I'm personally not interested to pay, because I'll rather buy TE and excellent wines for my money, and keep driving my old car which I've paid in full from my savings account. But it is patently false to state that it is not being done, now.

OK, I was of course talking about here in the UK, it is well known that the USA is streets ahead of the UK as the internet is awash with YT videos of Tesla's for the main part being driven from place to place using in the main Telsa's sat nav which of course has all the Tesla charging locations programmed into it and the current state of said chargers. That said, it is not always easy according to these blogs as some states are better than others.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 10:44 pm
OK, I was of course talking about here in the UK, it is well known that the USA is streets ahead of the UK as the internet is awash with YT videos of Tesla's for the main part being driven from place to place using in the main Telsa's sat nav which of course has all the Tesla charging locations programmed into it and the current state of said chargers. That said, it is not always easy according to these blogs as some states are better than others.

Europe is not different in method, only service coverage. In general, shorter distances, but the concept is the same. The charging network is being built, very fast, and is already impressively dense. The sat nav is the same -- Tesla is using the Google engine, which is as good (FSVO good, but car nav usually is OK) in Europe as it is in the US. There are parts of Europe less covered, but this is down to capitalism and its imperfect methods of service regulation. There also are places in Europe who won't supply fossil fuels at strange hours or to people with such strange things as credit cards as payment means -- both of which I find quaint to the extreme, because in Sweden, every filling station is 24/7 and the machine happily takes cards all the time.

Finally, if Cerebus says you're making un-sciencely methodical errors, you're having a problem.

I'm going on information provided, which also includes info from Cerebus, he mentioned ZAP in the first place, and also using info from Tom Tom. Combined with my own observations from doing longer trips away from the local area and I'm seeing precious few charging points at service stations. Those that exist, are generally 2 or 4, tucked away, a queue waiting and these are not even provided with a canopy over them, something the rest of us are given.

I don't think it's particularly good to be handling high voltages out in rain or snow, which tends to collect around these points because they are exposed, and an afterthought, so are generally not even given a drain, so rainwater tends to form great puddles around them.

The problem with the "not yet ready" mindset you keep repeating is that it is directly opposed to how anything new becomes adopted in the real world. Given our druthers, humans will kick the can down the road and fight to maintain the status quo, even when that status quo is and has been raping them up the ass for a century, which they (the energy industry in all its incarnations) have been.

TL/DR: We will never be ready for any technology as transformational as the migration to EV; no matter how it happens, a great many somebodies are going to be greatly inconvenienced, and some are going to be outright harmed. Full stop.

The difference is now, there is no more road to kick the can down. We are at the end.

We have to make that transition now; if we wait for TPTB to make it convenient for us, they will just drive the entire species off a cliff. Even if they do eventually make the transition, it will be in a way that keeps control of the world's energy in the same hands... now how would you feel if you not only got to watch the world burn, but all the solar infrastructure we're all paying for ourselves still winds up in the hands of those same motherfuckers who've been raping us for the last 100 years...?

mnem

Specmaster wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:13 am
I don't think it's particularly good to be handling high voltages out in rain or snow, which tends to collect around these points because they are exposed, and an afterthought, so are generally not even given a drain, so rainwater tends to form great puddles around them.

Fear mongering. The current breed of charging connector systems are actively managed devices which will have at most SELV voltages applied unless the system has concluded it has the connector mated and is communicating with a car.

Also; one of the biggest and most installed home charger box solutions (Easee) got struck down by the Electrical Safety Authority here. Forbidden to sell, and forbidden to use - and the reason is that the RCCB solution they selected was found to be working, but not quite up to spec. The system works. And a working RCCB will catch the puddle issue.

mansaxel wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 4:49 pm

Specmaster wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:13 am
I don't think it's particularly good to be handling high voltages out in rain or snow, which tends to collect around these points because they are exposed, and an afterthought, so are generally not even given a drain, so rainwater tends to form great puddles around them.

Fear mongering. The current breed of charging connector systems are actively managed devices which will have at most SELV voltages applied unless the system has concluded it has the connector mated and is communicating with a car.

Also; one of the biggest and most installed home charger box solutions (Easee) got struck down by the Electrical Safety Authority here. Forbidden to sell, and forbidden to use - and the reason is that the RCCB solution they selected was found to be working, but not quite up to spec. The system works. And a working RCCB will catch the puddle issue.

Fair comment, but just like anything else, system failures are not unheard of. The units I'm referring to are not home chargers but high current, high voltage and of DC which we all know if you are unfortunate enough to come into contact with (in these cases 400V) you will not generally be able to get away from it, unlike AC.

In most places the points also do not get any form of weather protection, like those in the photo at Rugby Services on the M6, are totally exposed to the weather, whereas ICE drivers enjoy a nice canopy to keep rain and snow at bay.

mansaxel wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 4:49 pm The current breed of charging connector systems are actively managed devices which will have at most SELV voltages applied unless the system has concluded it has the connector mated and is communicating with a car.

It's a little more than that. The standard charging arrangements have active earth monitoring, and will disconnect the supply (or refuse to connect it) if the earth is not proved to be present. Also the earth at the car and at the supply are both monitored and if there is a potential difference between the two the supply will be disconnected including the earth so that the car does not have a low impedance connection to an earth that is at a different potential from the adjacent ground. And naturally there is earth leakage monitoring that trips the circuit in the presence of a 6mA DC or pulsating DC leakage and/or 30 mA AC leakage.

Also for the standard IEC type 1 and type 2/Mennekes connectors the supply won't be turned on until the plug is physically locked to the vehicle, obviating human contact with any of the conductors (almost certainly true for other types, but I haven't personally tested them) . The creepage and clearance distance for the connectors are impressive (several centimeters) and are IP44 rated.

The cables carry their own current rating, and this is supplied to both the car and EVSE over the supervisory circuit so that it is impossible for the system to run a cable above its rating (charging current is automatically limited to the cable current rating or less, both on demand and supply sides).

Frankly you're safer plugging in a car to an EVSE in the pouring rain than you are shoving a plug into any standard AC outlet in the warm dry comfort of your own home.

Yes they are really complex beasts, one of the channels I follow, Salvage Rebuilds, have just released a video of hybrid car that they brought as a none runner, it apparently worked just fine when the owner parked up at night but refused to start the next morning. The garage said new parts were needed at 1K or more, these were fitted but didn't fix the problem, they then said the item was going to cost another 5K at this point the owner decided to sell the car, the rest is in the video and the complexity and costs are staggering. It does show however that if the EV part fails, it also knocks out the ICE part as well, enjoy the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8rFW512_Y

Cerebus wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:34 pm

mansaxel wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 4:49 pm The current breed of charging connector systems are actively managed devices which will have at most SELV voltages applied unless the system has concluded it has the connector mated and is communicating with a car.

It's a little more than that. The standard charging arrangements have active earth monitoring, and will disconnect the supply (or refuse to connect it) if the earth is not proved to be present. Also the earth at the car and at the supply are both monitored and if there is a potential difference between the two the supply will be disconnected including the earth so that the car does not have a low impedance connection to an earth that is at a different potential from the adjacent ground. And naturally there is earth leakage monitoring that trips the circuit in the presence of a 6mA DC or pulsating DC leakage and/or 30 mA AC leakage.

Isn't the vehicle normally "floating" because the tires isolate it from earth? Or are you saying that if the system does detect a path to earth on the vehicle it won't connect?

I suspect this is one of those cases where the engineering axiom of "Ground is a convenient fiction." plays out in the real world with shockingly expensive collateral damage.

mnem
tzzzzzzt.

Well....let's take our climate as an example. Winter. Deep snow. That could cause a conductive path to earth. Or this. An ice storm with heavily salted wet pavement. An even better potential path to earth. So don't take your EV out in bad weather. Sounds brilliant.

MED6753 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 3:26 pm Well....let's take our climate as an example. Winter. Deep snow. That could cause a conductive path to earth. Or this. An ice storm with heavily salted wet pavement. An even better potential path to earth. So don't take your EV out in bad weather. Sounds brilliant.

If it is that cold, then the range will be reduced and it will (or should!) take longer to charge. Double whammy.

Aside from that, apparently 400V isn't sufficient and 800V is being considered...
"As the transportation industry gears up for the EV era, battery packs with voltage ratings as high as 400-V and even 800-V are becoming standard to help boost range and reduce charging times. The trend to higher voltages has major implications when it comes to safely charging the battery at the heart of the EV. "
https://www.electronicdesign.com/featur ... v-charging

Makes my 1kV calibrator look puny.

Oh no, not more rocks in the road, going from 400 to 800V will mean having 2 charging systems which will add further to the nightmare of increasing the infrastructure in preparation for the 2030 outright ban on new ICE cars It will also mean that fire crews will have to take extra safety precautions when dealing with a higher voltage battery system and maybe even more water demand, existing Teslas can take upto 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of water, is that likely to double if the voltage is doubled?

https://www.ctif.org/news/150-000-liter ... ectric-car

Converting one voltage to another is an unknown art. Really.

And as our fellow forum member Zucca can tell, cars are tested in all sorts of conditions, including the worst, where Italian staff are subjected to horrors like pineapple pizza in small Swedish towns above the Arctic Circle.

Frankly, I am completely fed up with the fear mongering in this thread. All cars are shite. Some less, some more. But it is reasonably evenly distributed over the propulsion system landscape, and the lack of car making experience at for instance Tesla is more than well compensated by their complete mastery of the drive train, because it is better than in any ICE car I've driven. No exceptions. The traditional makers perplexingly lack this drivetrain skill but only somewhat can their car building experience compensate.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:45 pm Oh no, not more rocks in the road, going from 400 to 800V will mean having 2 charging systems which will add further to the nightmare of increasing the infrastructure in preparation for the 2030 outright ban on new ICE cars It will also mean that fire crews will have to take extra safety precautions when dealing with a higher voltage battery system and maybe even more water demand, existing Teslas can take upto 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of water, is that likely to double if the voltage is doubled?

I would presume that charging stations could be designed to cater for both 400V and 800V cars.

The batteries will contain the same energy whether they are connected in parallel (400V), or in series (800V). I don't see a reason the volume of water would have to change.

The higher voltage might be an issue in a fire though. The normal protection circuits might be inoperable, and 800V "spreads" more easily than 400V.

Having said that, decades ago I witnessed firefighters standing in the tracks spraying water over a fire in a railway station. I asked them and they were unconcerned about water and the third rail at 750V.

The relevant third rails may, of course, have been isolated due to the fire or because there was no train on that section at the time. The firefighters did not mention that possibility.