Test Equipment Anonymous

Do you by any chance, own or drive ICE car with adaptive cruise control, ACC, or a Hybrid or a EV car fitted with either "I-pedal" or one pedal drive mode, then you may be driving a car which could be a possible hazard even a death trap, watch this video and see what I'm talking about. I will be checking on my new car which I get tomorrow as it is fitted with ACC and may have this probelm as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YW7x9U5TQ

As if.

As if no ICE cars with manual gearbox and zero automation ever rearended something.

As if ICE cars never lowered speed by engine braking.

As if... et cetera ad infinitum.

This is fearmongering suited to increase Patreon payments.

The solution -- if we conclude that alertness on the part of the driver and a sensible distance to the vehicle in front is out of the question, is a cruise control that looks at distance to objects in front. It works very well.

But it is of course another thing we technophobes fear as too complicated and impossible to control as we hurl ourselves along the Autobahn in our technologically conceived machines at speeds formerly thought un-human. Yes, that's right. We can't trust the machine. Better forbid openable windows (because the mechanism can jam) in favour of open cars so we always can have the red flag ready to signal stop.

mansaxel wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:54 am As if ICE cars never lowered speed by engine braking.

I actually watched the video because the creator, if a bit longwinded, has made some interesting and amusing videos in the past, many deriding his fellow Americans for their silly units and superannuated electrical system. However this time his usual lack of parochiality has let him down. If you want to immobilise the average American give them a car with a manual gearbox. On this occasion the author has fallen for the parochial assumption, that all cars are automatics and the way you slow a vehicle down is with the brake pedal and if you slow down any other way other drivers will not spot that you are slowing down unless you're showing a brake light.

That may well be true for America - although if American drivers can't tell that a car they are following is slowing down by the fact that it's getting bigger and closer I'd be a little surprised, or perhaps not, having watched enough American dashcam footage of people just driving into stationary vehicles.

Both the video, and the comments, complain about cars that don't show a brake light when stationary. I find that odd, as accepted practice here and the way everybody is taught here is that if you've come to a stop and don't expect to immediately move again you should put the car into neutral and apply the handbrake (applies to both manual and automatic cars). If you're doing that correctly you will be stationary and won't be showing a brake light. Holding a car on the footbrake is regarded as bad form because in the event of getting rear-ended the first thing that will happen is that your foot will slip off the brake and you'll be catapulted into vehicles in front of you or worse into live traffic.

Advanced drivers are taught to actively and consciously think of the brake light as a deliberate signal and to use it as such. For example, to deliberately tap the footbrake when stationary (and properly in neutral with the handbrake on) if you think a driver approaching from behind hasn't noticed that you're stationary. That practice goes out of the window if you surrender control of the brake lights entirely to automation.

In pondering all this I had this thought: In the UK if you take your car driving test in an automatic you are only licensed to drive automatics, you have to take your driving test again in a manual if you wish to drive a car with manual transmission. Does that mean that someone who drives in the UK on an American licence is technically only licenced to drive automatics? I can't find the answer. I did find that Canadians can swap a Canadian driving licence for a UK one, but if you're from the USA you can't swap your USA licence for a UK one, you have to take a theory and practical test to get a UK driving licence.

hmmmmm. before leaving the states we used to go to AAA and pay 20 bucks for an International Driving Permit. all you had to show them was a valid state license. the IDP was valid in something like 150 countries......to include the UK.

there were certain garden spots that were known for pulling rental cars over and then extorting payola. if you didn't pay on the spot they would confiscate your license and you were supposed to report to the policia hq, where the capitan would extort his cut and then hand you a giant bucket full of licenses.

it was up to you to dig thru it until you maybe found yours.

only the new guys gave up their regular state license. we decided it would be better to just hand over the IDP and upon returning to the states go to AAA and pay 20 bucks for another.

when they cut travel orders you go wherever they send ya'. have never felt a need to return to any of those fly infested shit holes.

Cerebus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:14 pm

mansaxel wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:54 am As if ICE cars never lowered speed by engine braking.

I actually watched the video because the creator, if a bit longwinded, has made some interesting and amusing videos in the past, many deriding his fellow Americans for their silly units and superannuated electrical system. However this time his usual lack of parochiality has let him down. If you want to immobilise the average American give them a car with a manual gearbox. On this occasion the author has fallen for the parochial assumption, that all cars are automatics and the way you slow a vehicle down is with the brake pedal and if you slow down any other way other drivers will not spot that you are slowing down unless you're showing a brake light.

That may well be true for America - although if American drivers can't tell that a car they are following is slowing down by the fact that it's getting bigger and closer I'd be a little surprised, or perhaps not, having watched enough American dashcam footage of people just driving into stationary vehicles.

Both the video, and the comments, complain about cars that don't show a brake light when stationary. I find that odd, as accepted practice here and the way everybody is taught here is that if you've come to a stop and don't expect to immediately move again you should put the car into neutral and apply the handbrake (applies to both manual and automatic cars). If you're doing that correctly you will be stationary and won't be showing a brake light. Holding a car on the footbrake is regarded as bad form because in the event of getting rear-ended the first thing that will happen is that your foot will slip off the brake and you'll be catapulted into vehicles in front of you or worse into live traffic.

Advanced drivers are taught to actively and consciously think of the brake light as a deliberate signal and to use it as such. For example, to deliberately tap the footbrake when stationary (and properly in neutral with the handbrake on) if you think a driver approaching from behind hasn't noticed that you're stationary. That practice goes out of the window if you surrender control of the brake lights entirely to automation.

In pondering all this I had this thought: In the UK if you take your car driving test in an automatic you are only licensed to drive automatics, you have to take your driving test again in a manual if you wish to drive a car with manual transmission. Does that mean that someone who drives in the UK on an American licence is technically only licenced to drive automatics? I can't find the answer. I did find that Canadians can swap a Canadian driving licence for a UK one, but if you're from the USA you can't swap your USA licence for a UK one, you have to take a theory and practical test to get a UK driving licence.

While the points you raise are all very valid, you still seem to have completely overlooked the elephant in the room along with everyone else who has responded so far and that is a point that the presenter of the video made, in my opinion extremely well and went to excellent lengths to video and explain it so you could clearly see the hugely dangerous results and it must only be a matter of time before fatalities happen. This is the result of trying to extend the range capability of the vehicles battery pack by making use of the vehicles inertia to make the electric motors become powerful generators and stuff some capacity back into the battery. This regenerative braking can be if the user selects it to be, very aggressive indeed and is capable of bringing a car to a standstill in pretty quick order without ever needing to touch the brakes. As the brake lights are clearly operated by the brake pedal, again he clearly showed this, that means the car, in its most aggressive mode, can stop quickly without ever showing a brake light to motorists behind. This is clearly very undesirable for obvious reasons, not least of all is your own safety in the car in front if the person following DOES not see you are slowing or indeed stopped until its too late, and crashes into you, the damage is done, whether or not your able or not to argue that they should have been paying attention is extremely little comfort for your loved ones if you are killed in the accident. Better to try and avoid that from happening and also the very reason why brake lights were developed in the first place, they weren't always fitted to vehicles. This article goes into a bit more detail, no real mention of the UK, but cites America, or at least 11 of the states made them a requirement in 1928.
https://thenewswheel.com/the-history-of-brake-lights/
Others seem to think here in the UK did so in the early 1950's/

Anyway, the whole point of the video I posted was in relation to EV vehicles where certain manufacturers are now making a feature out the possibilities of being to drive an EV vehicle, or even a hybrid for that matter and bring it to a halt with sufficient force that you and your passengers will be made aware only too well by the deacceleration forces exerted on them. Some makers are calling the ability to use a single pedal to drive and stop your vehicle "I-Pedal" and that is dangerous as the vehicle fails to comply with lighting laws, as vehicles driven in this fashion will not ever indicate to following drivers that it is slowing or stopping unless the footbrake is employed and then the braking force may be too much.

The point is that with a conventional ICE vehicle, even a diesel powered one, just lifting your foot completely off the accelerator will not result in a aggressive braking effect, and slowing down will be a gradual event giving other drivers plenty of time to react safely, but with an ICE vehicle, you will at some point need to employ the brake pedal and is so doing, switch on your brake lights. This is also pointed out in the presenters video, that dangerous condition does not present itself in a conventional vehicle.

This whole post was not posted by me to be a hybrid or EV bashing session but a real dangerous threat to peoples safety and that is the only reason I posted it, as are all of my postings about EVs and the networks, or ULEZ etc are either inherent dangers or loss of personal freedom etc, it is up to each reader to make whatever your wish from the postings, I don't care. I don't own or drive and EV and I will never buy one with my own cash voluntarily until the real short comings that I highlight are addressed. You may all decide otherwise, that's your decision, not mine.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:29 pm

Cerebus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:14 pm

mansaxel wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:54 am As if ICE cars never lowered speed by engine braking.

I actually watched the video because the creator...[snip]

While the points you raise are all very valid, you still seem to have completely overlooked the elephant in the room along with everyone else who has responded so far and that is a point that the presenter of the video made, in my opinion extremely well and went to excellent lengths to video and explain it so you could clearly see the hugely dangerous results and it must only be a matter of time before fatalities happen. This is the result of trying to extend the range capability of the vehicles battery pack by making use of the vehicles inertia to make the electric motors become powerful generators and stuff some capacity back into the battery. This regenerative braking can be if the user selects it to be, very aggressive indeed and is capable of bringing a car to a standstill in pretty quick order without ever needing to touch the brakes. As the brake lights are clearly operated by the brake pedal, again he clearly showed this, that means the car, in its most aggressive mode, can stop quickly without ever showing a brake light to motorists behind. This is clearly very undesirable for obvious reasons, not least of all is your own safety in the car in front if the person following DOES not see you are slowing or indeed stopped until its too late, and crashes into you, the damage is done, whether or not your able or not to argue that they should have been paying attention is extremely little comfort for your loved ones if you are killed in the accident. Better to try and avoid that from happening and also the very reason why brake lights were developed in the first place, they weren't always fitted to vehicles. This article goes into a bit more detail, no real mention of the UK, but cites America, or at least 11 of the states made them a requirement in 1928.
https://thenewswheel.com/the-history-of-brake-lights/
Others seem to think here in the UK did so in the early 1950's/

Anyway, the whole point of the video I posted was in relation to EV vehicles where certain manufacturers are now making a feature out the possibilities of being to drive an EV vehicle, or even a hybrid for that matter and bring it to a halt with sufficient force that you and your passengers will be made aware only too well by the deacceleration forces exerted on them. Some makers are calling the ability to use a single pedal to drive and stop your vehicle "I-Pedal" and that is dangerous as the vehicle fails to comply with lighting laws, as vehicles driven in this fashion will not ever indicate to following drivers that it is slowing or stopping unless the footbrake is employed and then the braking force may be too much.

The point is that with a conventional ICE vehicle, even a diesel powered one, just lifting your foot completely off the accelerator will not result in a aggressive braking effect, and slowing down will be a gradual event giving other drivers plenty of time to react safely, but with an ICE vehicle, you will at some point need to employ the brake pedal and is so doing, switch on your brake lights. This is also pointed out in the presenters video, that dangerous condition does not present itself in a conventional vehicle.

This whole post was not posted by me to be a hybrid or EV bashing session but a real dangerous threat to peoples safety and that is the only reason I posted it, as are all of my postings about EVs and the networks, or ULEZ etc are either inherent dangers or loss of personal freedom etc, it is up to each reader to make whatever your wish from the postings, I don't care. I don't own or drive and EV and I will never buy one with my own cash voluntarily until the real short comings that I highlight are addressed. You may all decide otherwise, that's your decision, not mine.

This is all just FUD. The ability exists, and has for countless years, of slowing an ICE vehicle quickly just by changing down a gear or two - certainly a lot faster than the 60mph over 39 seconds (if I remember correctly) complained of in the video. Nobody was running around claiming that this was lethal and that the sky was falling.

The only way you'll get someone driving into the back of you when you're moving because of your own deliberate deceleration is if you fail to take observations of whether it is safe to decelerate. If you feel it is necessary to explicitly signal that you're slowing down you can always tap the brake pedal - those cars that have 1 pedal driving still have a separate brake pedal - or choose to stop using just the brake pedal. In an emergency you'll always be using the brake pedal so all this fuss about brake lights not coming on when you decelerate is irrelevant in that situation as they will be on. One pedal driving doesn't take away either the driver's control, or their responsibility to make deliberate decisions about the commands they give to their car.

My own driving history bears this out. I was taught "old school" advanced driving by a pukka police instructor (whose voice I can still hear in my head*) back in the days when making maximum use of engine braking and always being in the correct gear for your current speed was what was taught (Now advanced driving courses emphasise using the brakes first and then selecting gear) and never could get out of the habit. So I've been practicing "one pedal" driving in a manual ICE car for something like 36 years (subtracting the years from my driving experience of when I've had automatics). Nobody ever came even close to rear-ending me because I looked, as one should, in the rear view mirror before deciding to decelerate whatever mechanism one uses to decelerate. It was driven home to me by Sgt. Rayner that brake lights are a signal, should be used deliberately, and like any signal need only be given after considering whether it is necessary. Indeed there is even English case law (from the days of only hand signals) that explicitly settles whether you can slow a car without giving a signal and it decided that you can (can't find a reference, but it's old.).

To give you an idea how little I used the brakes, when I sold my last manual car, after 23 years ownership, it was still on the brake pads that were newly fitted shortly after it was first in my possession (the previous owner had rather hammered them) and they still had plenty of wear left in them when I said goodbye. Yet all those years and not one rear-end shunt, or even close, demonstrates that it's entirely possible to drive safely doing most of one's slowing without showing a brake light. In contrast now I'm back in an automatic I'm forever cleaning brake dust off my wheels even though I still control my speed as much as possible with my accelerator pedal only.

Now, an overly aggressive adaptive cruise control is another matter. If the driver has abrogated their decision making process to the car itself then the car ought to signal autonomously if it's going to decelerate. Of course, "The adaptive cruise control made me do it" won't find any traction in court as a defence to a careless or dangerous driving charge. (For what it's worth the non-adaptive cruise control in my 330e does light the brake lights if it has to brake because you've manually dialled down the set cruise speed.)

Also you clearly didn't follow the video closely enough, you say " Some makers are calling the ability to use a single pedal to drive and stop your vehicle "I-Pedal" and that is dangerous as the vehicle fails to comply with lighting laws" but the video goes to quite some lengths to prove that the way this is implemented does comply with US car light regulations, which the author found surprising.

* Favourite phrase when starting to tell someone off: "Now, that wasn't exactly exemplary driving, was it Sir?".

AVGresponding beat me to it.
My plug in hybrid has regenerative braking that operates when you lift off the throttle as well as when you press the brake pedal. The level of lift-off regenerative braking is driver selectable using paddles on the steering wheel. At the higher levels of regenerative braking the brake lights come on without touching the brake pedal.
It does have one feature that could surprise a driver. If the battery is fully charged the amount of regenerative braking is reduced until there is enough capacity to accept the additional energy. But as you have just charged the battery it should not be surprised.
My car does not have ADC and I would not want it as it does reduce driver engagement. It does have a variable limiter and I tend to use that more than the cruise control. It leave the driver in control but stops you accidentally exceeding the limit. Signficant depression of the accelerator overrides the limiter so no "I can't accelerate out of trouble" concerns.

Robert.

Robert wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:23 am AVGresponding beat me to it.
My plug in hybrid has regenerative braking that operates when you lift off the throttle as well as when you press the brake pedal. The level of lift-off regenerative braking is driver selectable using paddles on the steering wheel. At the higher levels of regenerative braking the brake lights come on without touching the brake pedal.
It does have one feature that could surprise a driver. If the battery is fully charged the amount of regenerative braking is reduced until there is enough capacity to accept the additional energy. But as you have just charged the battery it should not be surprised.
My car does not have ADC and I would not want it as it does reduce driver engagement. It does have a variable limiter and I tend to use that more than the cruise control. It leave the driver in control but stops you accidentally exceeding the limit. Signficant depression of the accelerator overrides the limiter so no "I can't accelerate out of trouble" concerns.

Robert.

Both you and AVGresponding are of course 100% correct and the point was made in the video that as far the presenter is aware, the problem is restricted to just Hyundai and Kia as they are from the same stable, he also said that others have found a work around, which you pointed out. I'm personally predicting that there will be a few fatal accidents, especially in the states as they don't seem to care about others while driving, and then there will be a massive row blow up and a recall for software modifications to incorporate some sort of G sensor to apply the brake light as a common courtesy to other drivers.

Specmaster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:24 pm and a recall for software modifications to incorporate some sort of G sensor to apply the brake light as a common courtesy to other drivers.

The decision to regen brake will be written in gold leaf on the CanBus or similar comms system, no need to do anything except listen to it and light off the nice red ones, possibly also influenced by the wheel speed indicators that are also available on same comms system. Most regulation systems take several inputs and make something of them providing conditions are met; something along the lines of

IF (regen system has engaged)
AND (change of speed, averaged over all wheels, has been negative over last 100ms)
AND (rear radar senses something moving along behind us)
THEN (turn on brake lights)

All of this is simply listening to the CanBus, storing some values, like speed, to get trends. No extra sensors required. There of course MAY exist an inertial movement platform in the car (probably does, usually part of the nav system, which pretty often is in place even if you did not pay for it, because it's cheaper to just build all cars with it and have a software option to enable it), then that too can be incorporated into the decision matrix.

Caveat: This is a naîve guess at how it works. Don't build a regen brake lamp igniter from this without doing the groundwork yourself.

mansaxel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:55 am

Specmaster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:24 pm and a recall for software modifications to incorporate some sort of G sensor to apply the brake light as a common courtesy to other drivers.

The decision to regen brake will be written in gold leaf on the CanBus or similar comms system, no need to do anything except listen to it and light off the nice red ones, possibly also influenced by the wheel speed indicators that are also available on same comms system. Most regulation systems take several inputs and make something of them providing conditions are met; something along the lines of

IF (regen system has engaged)
AND (change of speed, averaged over all wheels, has been negative over last 100ms)
AND (rear radar senses something moving along behind us)
THEN (turn on brake lights)

All of this is simply listening to the CanBus, storing some values, like speed, to get trends. No extra sensors required. There of course MAY exist an inertial movement platform in the car (probably does, usually part of the nav system, which pretty often is in place even if you did not pay for it, because it's cheaper to just build all cars with it and have a software option to enable it), then that too can be incorporated into the decision matrix.

Caveat: This is a naîve guess at how it works. Don't build a regen brake lamp igniter from this without doing the groundwork yourself.

Yes that all makes good common sense, so why is that not a mandatory item?