HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

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Zenith
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by Zenith »

mnementh wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:29 pm So far, I am more than happy to trust this counter as my "frequency reference". Probably closer than anything else I have by at least an order of magnitude.

I don't need to calibrate the OXCO I'm tinkering with... I just need to see that it actually does adjust, and that the minimum adjusted frequency actually is somewhere near low enough for my friend's application. Then he will adjust it to his satisfaction.
I bought a cheap Aliexpress GPSDO and it seems pretty damned good. I suppose I should launch the boat and get a Leo Bodnar one.

Here are my scrappy notes on measurements taken on four of those CTI OCXOs, which I recall were made with a Racal 1992 with the high grade OCXO, adjusted against the GPSDO. It doesn't drift much.
IMG_2176.JPG
Three of the four were at 10MHz at just over 2V. One was at 10MHz at 1.7V. The full range was around 30Hz from 0.1V to 4.0V.
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mansaxel
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by mansaxel »

tggzzz wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:23 am
mansaxel wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 6:37 am Given the right hardware, and a lot of legwork, we can lock two clocks into fractions of a µs over long distances. Which is a requirement we actually have.
Locking clocks like that I can understand.

But what might it mean w.r.t. agreeing the time? (.... refers to Leslie Lamport's partial ordering)
Basically, we have the requirement to be able to reconstruct -- at a later time -- the exact relation in time between two events, so as to be able to compensate for it.

I'll use audio streams for the example, because I know the intricate parts better on that side of the media business. We have, in a venue, a couple of microphones, that both are connected to A/D converters, producing an AES3 sample stream each. This stream is chunked into time slots of one ms, so 48 samples go in a slot, which then goes into a RTP packet, which is then sent over a network using IP multicast. Now, the two microphones can have different converter hosts, in effect entering the network from two different network nodes. But since it is distinctly possible that they both will hear the same sound (being in the same venue) the phase relationship that was present at their diaphragms needs to be preserved. This is achieved by time-stamping the RTP packets using the host clock. Phase being something we humans are very sensitive to, synchronisation of said clock is critical. The relevant standards require 1µs, which is sufficient. At the receiving end, the device responsible for observing the phase relationship of these two signals (the audio mixer, typically) will then time-shift the reconstructed bit streams into sync again, using the time stamps as guide. (Sadly, the digital earlierfication device has not yet been invented; which means that the first arrived stream will have to wait like the rabbit for the tortoise.)

This is achieved by having a PTP clocking system present on the network; and locking all sources and sinks to this clock. Consequently, we do care that a clock in Eugene, Oregon (at some sports event) is locked to our GM in Stockholm. With some care and elbow grease, good transmission systems can be predictable enough to be able to carry the clock across. For many applications, though, we are satisfied with being able to achieve a frequency synchronisation. This is true when we have different venues that need to transmit media between them, as long as all devices in each venue are in phase locally.
tggzzz
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by tggzzz »

OK, so you delay the "local" A stream until the "remote" B stream has arrived.

What happens if you also need them to be in sync at the other end? Can you just delay the B stream until the A stream has arrived over there?

Such delays would be interesting in, for example, distributed stock exchanges :)
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mnementh
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by mnementh »

Zenith wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:44 pm
mnementh wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:29 pm So far, I am more than happy to trust this counter as my "frequency reference". Probably closer than anything else I have by at least an order of magnitude.

I don't need to calibrate the OXCO I'm tinkering with... I just need to see that it actually does adjust, and that the minimum adjusted frequency actually is somewhere near low enough for my friend's application. Then he will adjust it to his satisfaction.
I bought a cheap Aliexpress GPSDO and it seems pretty damned good. I suppose I should launch the boat and get a Leo Bodnar one.

Here are my scrappy notes on measurements taken on four of those CTI OCXOs, which I recall were made with a Racal 1992 with the high grade OCXO, adjusted against the GPSDO. It doesn't drift much.

IMG_2176.JPG

Three of the four were at 10MHz at just over 2V. One was at 10MHz at 1.7V. The full range was around 30Hz from 0.1V to 4.0V.
This is very similar to what I observed with both of mine on the same knock-together dev board, only my adjustment range is 0-3.3V, as I used a dedicated LM1117-3.3 to prevent the BumbleButt from doing damage by screwing my trimpot too far.

I know aboot the Chinesium GPSDOs; and it may actually happen. For those with a few more bux to spend, I posted another more "the nuclear option" option in the eBay tat thread; a listing for several FEI-Zyfer GPStarplus units at "mere mortal affordable" prices.

Cheers!

mnem
any salacious double-entendres in this post are purely intentional. :smiling_imp:
mansaxel
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by mansaxel »

tggzzz wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:45 pm OK, so you delay the "local" A stream until the "remote" B stream has arrived.
Or, rather, there are two remote streams, that arrive via different paths having been sampled in the same acoustic space. When they arrive, we must play them in phase.
tggzzz wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:45 pm What happens if you also need them to be in sync at the other end? Can you just delay the B stream until the A stream has arrived over there?

Such delays would be interesting in, for example, distributed stock exchanges :)
There's a plethora of cases where you either require only frequency or also phase lock. Phase lock is interesting if you have a multipath with common source issue -- in general what I described earlier. Frequency lock without phase lock can give an edge on latency, since you only care about having the same definition of 48kHz everywhere, and not when a particular sample was taken. Then speedy delivery is possible. And frequency lock is sufficient if you have several remote sources that are in and of themselves idempotent by virtue of having no other sources sharing their location. Then, there is only a concept of "now" (both in micro- and macro- timing) influenced by path latency which makes everything late and uncontrollably so. Case in point: multipart conferences like Zoom, Teams, Discord, et al.

The stock exchange example is usually dealt with using multicast. Which is sufficient using a central model. A distributed model could benefit from a coördinated timing system, where data updates are distributed inside the stock exchange central system as soon as possible, but held at regional centres, until a prearranged time when they're released simultaneously, allowing for a fair distributed consumer model. Fairness would obviously come at the price of increased latency. I'm not certain this would be viewed as an acceptable tradeoff.
tggzzz
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by tggzzz »

Regarding the "same acoustic space" concept, what is the "correct" sound in a concert hall?

Sounds from two sections of the orchestra will have a different phase/delay on one side of the hall to the other side. Which is "correct"? Which is "incorrect"?

Regarding zoom and similar. If the differential latency is less than the reaction time, it is questionable whether it matters.

Regarding stock exchanges. "Traditional" stock exchanges seem relatively easy, but then the High Frequency Trading mob appears. You know, the mob that lays its own transatlantic cables, buy a up microwave links because the speed of light in air is 50% higher than in optical fibres, and who implement the entire protocol stack in silicon (yes, business/trading rules compiled into FPGA gates) - all in the name of shaving a few nanoseconds off the reaction time.The

Those people get obsessive about having their server farms nearer to the exchange than other clients.

If all that can be dealt with by delays and synchronizing phase, why do they spend many billions of dollars on infrastructure?
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bd139
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by bd139 »

tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding the "same acoustic space" concept, what is the "correct" sound in a concert hall?
LOUD

Last Saturday's evening out...

Zenith
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by Zenith »

bd139 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:18 pm
tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding the "same acoustic space" concept, what is the "correct" sound in a concert hall?
LOUD
Yeah. How can Led Zeppelin be enjoyed at below the threshold of pain? Classical music is fine, but I can only properly enjoy the Heavy Metal when my neighbours have gone on holiday for the week.
tggzzz
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by tggzzz »

Zenith wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:37 pm
bd139 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:18 pm
tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding the "same acoustic space" concept, what is the "correct" sound in a concert hall?
LOUD
Yeah. How can Led Zeppelin be enjoyed at below the threshold of pain? Classical music is fine, but I can only properly enjoy the Heavy Metal when my neighbours have gone on holiday for the week.
Headphones, dear boy, headphones.

Plus they are binaural (as per other conversation with Mansaxel about phase :) ).
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MED6753
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by MED6753 »

tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:26 pm
Zenith wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:37 pm
bd139 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:18 pm

LOUD
Yeah. How can Led Zeppelin be enjoyed at below the threshold of pain? Classical music is fine, but I can only properly enjoy the Heavy Metal when my neighbours have gone on holiday for the week.
Headphones, dear boy, headphones.

Plus they are binaural (as per other conversation with Mansaxel about phase :) ).
My Latino neighbors like to sometimes play their salsa music loudly so I gladly return the favor with a heavy dose Led Zeppelin or Floyd.
An old gray beard with an attitude. I don't bite.....sometimes :twisted:
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nixiefreqq
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by nixiefreqq »

MED6753 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:20 am
tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:26 pm
Zenith wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:37 pm

Yeah. How can Led Zeppelin be enjoyed at below the threshold of pain? Classical music is fine, but I can only properly enjoy the Heavy Metal when my neighbours have gone on holiday for the week.
Headphones, dear boy, headphones.

Plus they are binaural (as per other conversation with Mansaxel about phase :) ).
My Latino neighbors like to sometimes play their salsa music loudly so I gladly return the favor with a heavy dose Led Zeppelin or Floyd.
shine on you crazy diamond.
free range primate since 2011
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bd139
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by bd139 »

Prefer something a little louder these days.

My most played track of 2023 was the following, which is Dimmu Borgir by Dimmu Borgir, which I actually listened to at Dimmuborgir in Iceland :lol:

tggzzz
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by tggzzz »

bd139 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:58 pm My most played track of 2023 was the following, which is Dimmu Borgir by Dimmu Borgir, which I actually listened to at Dimmuborgir in Iceland :lol:
Daughter was amazed when I told her Dimmuborgir was a real (and strange wonderful) place.
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MED6753
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by MED6753 »

bd139 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:58 pm Prefer something a little louder these days.

My most played track of 2023 was the following, which is Dimmu Borgir by Dimmu Borgir, which I actually listened to at Dimmuborgir in Iceland :lol:
Metal and Grunge is only on the menu if Blondie isn't home or I'm in the car alone. Even the cat runs away and hides when I play it. :lol:
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mnementh
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by mnementh »

bd139 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:18 pm
tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding the "same acoustic space" concept, what is the "correct" sound in a concert hall?
LOUD

Last Saturday's evening out...

I'll admit I found the images you shared in realtime of a tatt'd female soundcrew being molested by a giant rubber duckie far more entertaining than the music...

mnem
:smiling_imp:
mansaxel
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by mansaxel »

tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding the "same acoustic space" concept, what is the "correct" sound in a concert hall?

Sounds from two sections of the orchestra will have a different phase/delay on one side of the hall to the other side. Which is "correct"? Which is "incorrect"?
To the discussion on transmission of sound as packetised sample chunks over non-deterministic networks, this does not matter, not the least. The problem the transmission system has to overcome is to ship the bits in a way that lets them be reconstructed as sound in the most correct way possible; correct not being "best" from an artistic POV, but being defined as "the way the microphones heard it".
tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding zoom and similar. If the differential latency is less than the reaction time, it is questionable whether it matters.
Also, research shows that human signal processing and message handling has improved the last 30 years from exposure to delayed voice comms, mostly cell phones. We deal better with it now than what classical research (typically made by phone and radio companies) showed back in the day.
tggzzz wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:49 pm Regarding stock exchanges. "Traditional" stock exchanges seem relatively easy, but then the High Frequency Trading mob appears. You know, the mob that lays its own transatlantic cables, buy a up microwave links because the speed of light in air is 50% higher than in optical fibres, and who implement the entire protocol stack in silicon (yes, business/trading rules compiled into FPGA gates) - all in the name of shaving a few nanoseconds off the reaction time.The

Those people get obsessive about having their server farms nearer to the exchange than other clients.

If all that can be dealt with by delays and synchronizing phase, why do they spend many billions of dollars on infrastructure?
Probably because not all stock exchanges exhibit this, and therefore the artificially delayed data exchange would not attract any business.
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bd139
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Re: HP 5334B Options H05, 010, & 030: Only 99 Dollah!

Post by bd139 »

Saying that there is some talk on exchanges of time-slicing things to destroy some of the HFTs which are damaging things. So you have to place all orders in an interval. And then there's a commit-guard window after that where trades are resolved. Then the next interval opens. We're talking 10 minute / 5 minute sized windows here.

I suspect it'll be vastly unpopular and never implemented though.
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