Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) : Discussion and Group Therapy Thread

[tggzzz]

Some Youtube videos are better than others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtWp45E ... odicVideos

Bugger. There go some more hours.

Still a bit of a talking head, but at least the moving pictures are necessary, and the info content is relatively dense.

[Cubdriver]

Just so. Arsine AsF₃ being another.

My father was quite happy to bring home some conc HCl and iron sulphide in his coat pocket, and for me to stink out the kitchen by mixing them. He said he was frightened by HF, and wouldn't go near it, even at work.

The "things I wouldn't work with" sub-blog starts at things like HF, and goes on to things like, IIRC N₇ (!). There are frequent references to large craters and to what to do when you see people running out of a laboratory.

Yup. The ion implanters used Arsine; I remember learning that it would be at a fatal concentration before you could smell it.

Phosphorus Oxychloride (POCl₃) was another nasty one - it came in a sealed spherical glass container about the size of a duck pin bowling ball that was packed in a poly bag that was encased in a cylindrical metal container about twelve inches in diameter and a foot and a half tall, full of vermiculite with the end held on by a band clamp. This container was then shipped in a wooden crate lined with three inch thick soft foam with the lid bolted on. Lovely stuff! Apparently if you caught a whiff you’d smell it for a week.

And let’s not forget 100% silane gas - pyrophoric and would ignite on contact with the air. Easy to leak check those gas lines!

-Pat

[Robert]

In the USA you can buy rust stain remover containing HF at the hardware store Whink Rust Stain remover is 2% HF
Suprisingly I found a UK seller https://www.repairingproducts.co.uk/pro ... over-16oz/

[tggzzz]

In the USA you can buy rust stain remover containing HF at the hardware store Whink Rust Stain remover is 2% HF
Suprisingly I found a UK seller https://www.repairingproducts.co.uk/pro ... over-16oz/

The MSDS is appropriately amusing. If inhaled, on skin or hair, wash and immediately call a poison centre or doctor. No if, no buts
web.faa.illinois.edu/app/uploads/sites/6/2021/05/WHINK-Rust-Stain-Remover.pdf

But that at https://www.rustoleum.com/MSDS/ENGLISH/1261.pdf is a little less ... urgent.

[tggzzz]

Just so. Arsine AsF₃ being another.

My father was quite happy to bring home some conc HCl and iron sulphide in his coat pocket, and for me to stink out the kitchen by mixing them. He said he was frightened by HF, and wouldn't go near it, even at work.

The "things I wouldn't work with" sub-blog starts at things like HF, and goes on to things like, IIRC N₇ (!). There are frequent references to large craters and to what to do when you see people running out of a laboratory.

Yup. The ion implanters used Arsine; I remember learning that it would be at a fatal concentration before you could smell it.

Selenophenol sounds like it is fun to work with, at least upwind and from a safe distance https://www.science.org/content/blog-po ... lenophenol

Let's not forget phosgene. "Oh yes, at near-threshold levels, phosgene has a fragrance very similar to lilac."
https://gaussling.wordpress.com/2007/10 ... -phosgene/

Phosphorus Oxychloride (POCl₃) was another nasty one - it came in a sealed spherical glass container about the size of a duck pin bowling ball that was packed in a poly bag that was encased in a cylindrical metal container about twelve inches in diameter and a foot and a half tall, full of vermiculite with the end held on by a band clamp. This container was then shipped in a wooden crate lined with three inch thick soft foam with the lid bolted on. Lovely stuff! Apparently if you caught a whiff you’d smell it for a week.

And let’s not forget 100% silane gas - pyrophoric and would ignite on contact with the air. Easy to leak check those gas lines!

-Pat

Then there's ClF₃, where "sand won't save you this time". (my emphasis)
The compound also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile.
...
There’s a report from the early 1950s (in this PDF) of a one-ton spill of the stuff. It burned its way through a foot of concrete floor and chewed up another meter of sand and gravel beneath, completing a day that I'm sure no one involved ever forgot. That process, I should add, would necessarily have been accompanied by copious amounts of horribly toxic and corrosive by-products: it’s bad enough when your reagent ignites wet sand, but the clouds of hot hydrofluoric acid are your special door prize if you’re foolhardy enough to hang around and watch the fireworks.
...
I’ll let the late John Clark describe the stuff, since he had first-hand experience in attempts to use it as rocket fuel. From his out-of-print classic Ignition! we have:
”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”
https://www.science.org/content/blog-po ... e-you-time

Is it any wonder chemistry is a "dying subject"?

[mansaxel]

Can I bequest to my ex, since she got a portion of my retirement pension, that she go shit in her hat?

This is alien to me.

If I were to divorce my wife, which I do not plan to, we'd split our things, and then be done. I'd have to make sure that the costs for children under 18 were shared, but that is all. Swedish law is pretty equal and does not assume some people are to be provided for just because.

[Zenith]

My father was quite happy to bring home some conc HCl and iron sulphide in his coat pocket, and for me to stink out the kitchen by mixing them. He said he was frightened by HF, and wouldn't go near it, even at work.

Hydrogen sulphide is as poisonous as hydrogen cyanide. It's not normally considered so dangerous because it's so smelly, but olfactory fatigue sets in rapidly. The mechanism by which cyanides work is well understood, but I wondered how hydrogen sulphide worked its mischief.

Selenophenol sounds like it is fun to work with, at least upwind and from a safe distance https://www.science.org/content/blog-po ... lenophenol

I read "Humour and Humanism in Chemistry" by John Read. He described how experiments were being done on organic selenium compounds at Cambridge on one of Queen Victoria's anniversaries, and the town was stunk out. Headlines in the papers were "Anniversary a Fiasco. Town Drains Exonerated. University Chemists to Blame". They continued their experiments on a punt on the fens but were forced to abandon them when the equipment became clogged with flies. He noted that the extreme smelliness of organic selenium compounds was a reason why their chemistry was not well developed.

Let's not forget phosgene. "Oh yes, at near-threshold levels, phosgene has a fragrance very similar to lilac."
https://gaussling.wordpress.com/2007/10 ... -phosgene/

Years ago, when I was a student, I worked in a carpet factory. I was talking to the stores manager and for some reason the conversation turned to his time in WWII, when he was involved in degreasing factory packed rifles with carbon tetrachloride. He said that people became ill from the fumes, but people who smoked while doing it became very ill. I helpfully pointed out that if you pass a mixture of carbon tetrachloride and air over a bed of glowing carbon, such as a cigarette, it produces phosgene.

[tggzzz]

My father was quite happy to bring home some conc HCl and iron sulphide in his coat pocket, and for me to stink out the kitchen by mixing them. He said he was frightened by HF, and wouldn't go near it, even at work.

Hydrogen sulphide is as poisonous as hydrogen cyanide. It's not normally considered so dangerous because it's so smelly, but olfactory fatigue sets in rapidly. The mechanism by which cyanides work is well understood, but I wondered how hydrogen sulphide worked its mischief.

So I've often heard.

It was, of course, sufficiently smelly that the back door was fully open That wouldn't have happened with the pleasant smell of bitter almonds/marzipan.

Selenophenol sounds like it is fun to work with, at least upwind and from a safe distance https://www.science.org/content/blog-po ... lenophenol

I read "Humour and Humanism in Chemistry" by John Read. He described how experiments were being done on organic selenium compounds at Cambridge on one of Queen Victoria's anniversaries, and the town was stunk out. Headlines in the papers were "Anniversary a Fiasco. Town Drains Exonerated. University Chemists to Blame". They continued their experiments on a punt on the fens but were forced to abandon them when the equipment became clogged with flies. He noted that the extreme smelliness of organic selenium compounds was a reason why their chemistry was not well developed.

My first 6th form chemistry lesson (at the end of summer term after exams) consisted of every bottle in the small chemistry supply room being taken out and passed around the class. We each breathed in some of the chemical so that we could have a clue about their smell. I remember being able to smell "rats droppings, but not "mice droppings".

We did once play with KCN, in a fume cupboard and with a reminder not to put any acid in the sink after the KCN had been disposed of.

Times change.

Let's not forget phosgene. "Oh yes, at near-threshold levels, phosgene has a fragrance very similar to lilac."
https://gaussling.wordpress.com/2007/10 ... -phosgene/

Years ago, when I was a student, I worked in a carpet factory. I was talking to the stores manager and for some reason the conversation turned to his time in WWII, when he was involved in degreasing factory packed rifles with carbon tetrachloride. He said that people became ill from the fumes, but people who smoked while doing it became very ill. I helpfully pointed out that if you pass a mixture of carbon tetrachloride and air over a bed of glowing carbon, such as a cigarette, it produces phosgene.

Eek!

ISTR having an HP branded metal bottles of carbon tet for cleaning tape heads. That would have been late 80s.

[Specmaster]

Why not? There are such things as mischevious wills, which might involve people squabbling for ever over nothing much, or involve unpleasant penances to get the prize. It could be a puzzle they have to solve. It was a thing in the Victorian age. Actually, leaving a mischevious will could be a fun way of telling people what you really think of them. There's no one I'm close to I detest so much.

Without that, there's usually a load of shed load of shit to be sorted through when people cash their chips in, even if you weren't close.

If you have unpleasant relatives, set up the will so they have to agree on how to divide parts of the will. Phrases like "I leave my jewellery equally to X and Y, to be divided as they see fit" can come in useful.

If you want to piss someone off, don't omit them from the will since that will allow them to challenge its validity. Instead specifically name them and leave them a low value item (brownie points for ensuring they don't want it )

My wishes will be simple and evil.

1. All assets are to be sold and the funds raised added to a pool and distributed to the three children.
2. I wish to be cremated.
3. My ashes are to be shoved through the letterbox of TBD so they can never get rid of me.

TBD being one of three people. Not sure who I hate the most yet. I will think about it.

I expect that some clever legal personage will be able to find a way to actually block your third wish from getting granted.

[MED6753]

Attended the Orange County Hamfest today and overall was a disappointment. Much smaller than the same hamfest I attended 3 years ago. I suspect all the SK's and lack of interest for younger folks to become Hams. There were only about 6 tables and one of them was the ARRL.

So what TE was found? Not much. Several never heard of brand RF/AF generators. If any of them had been hp I would have made an offer. A 1941 Weston multimeter in a nice wooden case for only $25 USD. I passed. One scope. B&K portable 20MHz with 2 inch CRT. AC or battery powered. Thought about it but passed. I don't feel like dealing with I'm sure has dead/leaky Nicads.

So that's about it. Hardly even worth the trip. Surprisingly few Hobos. I guess they are dying off.

[Robert]

Went to the Thorpe Camp Radio Rally today. Mostly to sell. Not much TE sold and I didn't but any. I did have one first related to an earlier discussion on here:
I "jump-started" an EV. Not a Tesla, a Hyundai. Owned by the seller next to me. Somehow over 4-5 hours they discharged the 12V lead-acid auxillary battery. That meant they could not turn it on. The battery was down to 5V. I was in SWMBO's Ford Focus (2l petrol). He asked for a jump start. I pointed out it was a bit risky but he said it was OK. Not that he knows about the car, he was looking for the alternator...
Not sure how the car lets you flatten the 12V battery when there is charge in the traction battery. Owner thought that was 48V.... He did not appear to have any radio kit connected.
Anyway after 10-15 minutes of connection to my running car his battery was up to 12.6V. I disconnected the jump leads and they were able to turn the car on.

Robert.

[Specmaster]

Went to the Thorpe Camp Radio Rally today. Mostly to sell. Not much TE sold and I didn't but any. I did have one first related to an earlier discussion on here:
I "jump-started" an EV. Not a Tesla, a Hyundai. Owned by the seller next to me. Somehow over 4-5 hours they discharged the 12V lead-acid auxillary battery. That meant they could not turn it on. The battery was down to 5V. I was in SWMBO's Ford Focus (2l petrol). He asked for a jump start. I pointed out it was a bit risky but he said it was OK. Not that he knows about the car, he was looking for the alternator...
Not sure how the car lets you flatten the 12V battery when there is charge in the traction battery. Owner thought that was 48V.... He did not appear to have any radio kit connected.
Anyway after 10-15 minutes of connection to my running car his battery was up to 12.6V. I disconnected the jump leads and they were able to turn the car on.

Robert.

Yeah, I've heard of that before, and if you are unlucky enough to be incapacitated for a few months and the main traction battery runs flat, on a Tesla at least, the car has to be recovered to a main service agent who needs to have the correct equipment and allegedly a certain type of charger in order to return the car to some sort of heath again.

Just imagine in a few years time if an EV is discovered as a "barn find", it will be impossible to get it running again without spending thousands on a new traction battery. It seems that EVs are just becoming a expensive throwaway item like an old laptop etc.

[Zenith]

Went to the Thorpe Camp Radio Rally today. Mostly to sell. Not much TE sold and I didn't but any. I did have one first related to an earlier discussion on here:

If you can raise the steam, bung in a report in the events section. Thorpe, Lincs is too far outside of my range to be practical and the entry price at a fiver seems a trite high. Nonetheless, I'd be interested to hear how it went.

I "jump-started" an EV. Not a Tesla, a Hyundai. Owned by the seller next to me. Somehow over 4-5 hours they discharged the 12V lead-acid auxillary battery. That meant they could not turn it on. The battery was down to 5V. I was in SWMBO's Ford Focus (2l petrol). He asked for a jump start. I pointed out it was a bit risky but he said it was OK. Not that he knows about the car, he was looking for the alternator...
Not sure how the car lets you flatten the 12V battery when there is charge in the traction battery. Owner thought that was 48V.... He did not appear to have any radio kit connected.
Anyway after 10-15 minutes of connection to my running car his battery was up to 12.6V. I disconnected the jump leads and they were able to turn the car on.

Robert.

It confirms my belief that EVs, for general use, are a serious waste of time

[Zenith]

ISTR having an HP branded metal bottles of carbon tet for cleaning tape heads. That would have been late 80s.

As I recall it was little plastic bottles (50 ml) of some freon - a chlorofluorocarbon. We were asked to surrender them in the name of saving the planet, but I hung onto mine. It's long been used up. There was a little plastic implement with two sponge heads to apply it - no crude cotton buds.

Carbon tet was used in dry cleaning for a long time. There were instances of people dropping off to sleep at the wheel through putting dry cleaned clothes on the back seat of their car. Carbon tet isn't that far removed from chloroform.

[tggzzz]

The stuff I had was in a can like this. It was applied with very long cotton buds and/or foam rubber buds. I suspect I still have some buds buried, Just In Case.

[Zenith]

Attended the Orange County Hamfest today and overall was a disappointment. Much smaller than the same hamfest I attended 3 years ago. I suspect all the SK's and lack of interest for younger folks to become Hams. There were only about 6 tables and one of them was the ARRL.

Sounds like a sub-micro rally. About the worst I've been to is Swinborne which was about 3 times bigger than that. I picked up a couple of heatsinks. I went last year and as well as there being not much there, parking was a pain. I didn't go this year.

So what TE was found? Not much. Several never heard of brand RF/AF generators. If any of them had been hp I would have made an offer. A 1941 Weston multimeter in a nice wooden case for only $25 USD. I passed. One scope. B&K portable 20MHz with 2 inch CRT. AC or battery powered. Thought about it but passed. I don't feel like dealing with I'm sure has dead/leaky Nicads.

So that's about it. Hardly even worth the trip. Surprisingly few Hobos. I guess they are dying off.

Some of those generic RF/AF sig gens are surprisingly flippable, because they are small and neat. I dislike dealing with festering NiCd packs.

[Robert]

The EV I jump started was fine and had enough range in the traction battery to get home. It just needed the 12V battery charged so it would turn on. No idea why it discharged with power in the traction battery.

On people falling asleep with dry cleaning its more likely to be "trike" Trichloroetheleyne than carbon tetrachloride. Trike was actually used as an anesthetic.

Robert.

[tggzzz]

On people falling asleep with dry cleaning its more likely to be "trike" Trichloroetheleyne than carbon tetrachloride. Trike was actually used as an anesthetic.

Irritating thought. I might have misremembered the HP head cleaning fluid: it might have been trike rather than carbon tet.

[bd139]

The EV I jump started was fine and had enough range in the traction battery to get home. It just needed the 12V battery charged so it would turn on. No idea why it discharged with power in the traction battery.

I think that's a problem with some of the hardware architecture of the vehicles. Anyway got the Model S started. It wasn't bricked. Basically the thing went into "lockdown" of some sort because the app wasn't responding. The app was of course not responding because it was still in the hospital on a phone which was as dead as the owner. Managed to get in and sort it and unlink it. Also on his phone was the app for the Ohme home charger. This had a couple of constraints set up on it (max price + max charge + period) which meant that no vehicle would charge properly which was screwing his widow over (she has an electric MG). Managed to break into his iPad, set the app up on that and remove all the charge limits which resulted in them being able to charge the cars at least. So tried to charge up the tesla and the charge shats out after each 10% and you have to replug it. No diagnostic info and nothing else. Grr. Too much software!

On that note as well, I don't have a car at the moment so I went to hire one and Hertz are doing Polestar 2 EVs for bugger all money and I have his "fuel card" so I nabbed one for a week. It's like driving a Wish android tablet stuck to a shit Volvo. Utterly less shit than the Tesla though.

Proceeding to dredge through the large box of disks left now. It's mostly copies of the same stuff which is a big phew. The Lightroom catalogue is only 800 gig or so and is all RAWs so less of a problem. I can shave that off slowly

Box-o-disks ...

IMG_0075.jpeg

[Specmaster]

ISTR having an HP branded metal bottles of carbon tet for cleaning tape heads. That would have been late 80s.

As I recall it was little plastic bottles (50 ml) of some freon - a chlorofluorocarbon. We were asked to surrender them in the name of saving the planet, but I hung onto mine. It's long been used up. There was a little plastic implement with two sponge heads to apply it - no crude cotton buds.

Carbon tet was used in dry cleaning for a long time. There were instances of people dropping off to sleep at the wheel through putting dry cleaned clothes on the back seat of their car. Carbon tet isn't that far removed from chloroform.

Carbon tetrachloride was also used in fire extinguishers in the 1960s and was widely used on buses in that role, I remember they were chrome and had a pump handle so you could use as little of it as you required. The fumes gave you a nasty headache once they had been deployed inside a bus.

FE.jpg

[Specmaster]

Not sure how the car lets you flatten the 12V battery when there is charge in the traction battery.
Robert.

The HV traction battery will charge the 12v battery but that is normally only when the car is in use, or the "ignition" is switched on. So my guess would be that the ignition was OFF and there was some drain on the 12v battery or that the 12v battery was on its last legs and things like the interior lights etc were enough of a drain to prevent it from powering the main contactor to switch on the traction battery.

[Zenith]

The HV traction battery will charge the 12v battery but that is normally only when the car is in use, or the "ignition" is switched on. So my guess would be that the ignition was OFF and there was some drain on the 12v battery or that the 12v battery was on its last legs and things like the interior lights etc were enough of a drain to prevent it from powering the main contactor to switch on the traction battery.

Let's cut to the chase. EVs should be mandated to have a wind turbine on the roof, so they could charge themselves as they went along, or on windy days when they were parked. Solar cells on the bonnet and roof, would make sure that there would be excess energy which could be contributed to the grid. Then this sort of thing would never happen.

I've found people who dispute the obvious sense of these proposals, are the same sort who go through contortions to deny the obvious fact that the earth is flat.

[MED6753]

I've found people who dispute the obvious sense of these proposals, are the same sort who go through contortions to deny the obvious fact that the earth is flat.

And the moon is made of green cheese.

[bd139]

Yellow cheese. They don't have American food standards up there!

[tggzzz]

Yellow cheese. They don't have American food standards up there!

I once broke off a piece of MacDonalds cheese, and ate it on its own. I was surprised how little flavour it had, and was appalled that a food scientist had been paid to develop the cheese stuff.