Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA): Discussion and Group Therapy thread Part 2

[Zenith]

I have KEF C95s I've had for 35 years. They suit me.

If they suit you then don't scratch that tickle; it will only turn into an itch.

It always struck me that the hi-fi industry was a treadmill. You'd buy something and a year later see endless articles recommending upgrades to the new wonder from your now hopelessly upstaged thing. It was even worse with valve amplifiers. Then there were the ridiculous tweaks which had no engineering or other rational basis.

I came to the conclusion that I was happy with what I had, and had better uses for disposable cash than prop up an industry that was increasingly biased toward bullshit and fanciful nonsense.

[tggzzz]

Back in the 50s, 60s, 70s there was a lot of progress and a lot of "better than nothing" stuff around. It was worth looking at reviews to understand what was new and better and why.

From the 80s onwards many of the analogue technologies had plateaued out, with only minor improvements. (CD was the exception, heralding the digital takeover). The audio reviewers started aping the wine reviewers.

Apart from that, industries of all kinds will always try tomget you to buy "new shiny", even when it is worse than predecessors. When people stop being suckered like that, industries stop selling products and force you to rent their products.

[EC8010]

When people stop being suckered like that, industries stop selling products and force you to rent their products.

Which is what is happening now with test equipment. Is a new 6 1/2 digit DMM better than one from the 1990s? Or 8 1/2? No. How about current probes? Are they cheaper than they were in the 90s? No. Why not? Their R&D costs must have been amortised by now.

Agreed, a lot of analogue progress was made in the 70s-90s. And then it stopped. Early CD was pretty dreadful, and measurably flawed for a long while. But convenient for the consumer and very profitable for the record companies. A lot of the specialist devices I used to need for work were developed by the Hi-Fi industry (quiet FETs, like the BF862 in particular). But the Hi-Fi industry is now ridiculous. I find it far harder to cough up money for anything Hi-Fi than I do for test equipment. Yet it is now possible to make much better loudspeakers than twenty years ago. Cheap digits make active crossovers and a correct transient response much easier to achieve. But most people buy loudspeakers on the quantity of bass for the size of box, not the quality.

[Zenith]

Things get cheaper and easier to make as technology improves.

With test equipment, the big names HPAK, Tek, R&S etc, found what would have been a top end instrument commanding a hefty price in 1970, was pretty much a commodity by 1990. They had to move further up the food chain and offer more capabilities, more features. HP's last analogue scopes came out in 1983. They could see the writing on the wall. Tek stuck with analogue a lot longer but they were a specialist scope maker. It was getting to the stage where anyone could make an analogue scope. By the late 80s there were loads of solid state scopes around, 20MHz dual channel, affordable for amateurs and servicing. How much bandwidth do people need in a scope anyway? I bet 20MHz dual channel would still cover what most people want.There's always been a lot of specsmanship in scopes. i've got a modern DSO and I find the features are nice; readouts for voltage levels, RMS, frequency, cursors, screen capture (which beats photography with an analogue scope hands down).

With hi-fi they were talking about tangible things, such as performance measurements, until around the mid 80s. After then, I agree with tggzzz, it became like reading reviews of wine. "This amplifier has a firm but not strident bass, some loss of control in the mid-range, the treble is frighteningly revealing". I suppose by then what was practically a perfect audio amplifier could be sold for about £250, but they still wanted to sell £2,000 plus ones.

I've no idea about loudspeakers. I assume they've gradually improved as better materials and techniques have been developed.

[Robert]

There was still a fair bit left after I'd filled the back of the car. With price of fuel it would not have been worth my driving there but I had to go within 10 miles for work for a couple of days so not so bad. Might have to go back to the work location next week.

That's the main stack. There were also some smalls.

Blimus! You bought all that? I am humbled.

So you don't think I should go back for more next week

[Zenith]

There was still a fair bit left after I'd filled the back of the car. With price of fuel it would not have been worth my driving there but I had to go within 10 miles for work for a couple of days so not so bad. Might have to go back to the work location next week.

That's the main stack. There were also some smalls.

Blimus! You bought all that? I am humbled.

So you don't think I should go back for more next week

Did you come away wishing you had a bigger car because some treasures had to be left behind? Is there much left you want?

[Robert]

No. The three items I really wanted had already gone. I could reduce their pile of scrap though. And the travel cost is covered.

[Zenith]

There's gold in that thar junk, or so I'm told. I haven't investigated. You may not be that hard up anyway.

Otherwise, Xmas and birthday gifts for nerdy friends, or attention catching bargains if you have a rally stall. You would be doing your bit to avoid e-waste and save the planet.

[Robert]

People are not buying boatanchors at rallies these days. Some of the kit has useful parts for example some of the 8410 VNA units. No one is going to use a 8410 setup for making practical measurements. Too many boxes and complicated setup, calibration and reading. Unfortunately all of the units I've looked at soo far have had issues like water damage, incomplete repairs of poor quality and critical parts robbed.
One had a downright deadly modification of two C14 mains inlets. The original HP one on the back and another one on the side wired in parallel. So as long as it's plugged in one will have exposed live pins. There was a cut-off, epoxy filled C13 plug on a bit of lacing cord. This was obviously intended as a "safety" cover but the lacing cord was only long enough to reach the side connector...
There is quite a bit of Au in some of the older HP kit. However it varies and to get best return selective disassembly is required ad you need a fair bit to cover the fixed costs like shipping. DIY recovery of Au Is a complete no-no because of the chemicals involved. I'm not going into details but the metal alloy method is particularly bad. People trying it have poisoned their neighbours. The cost of the materials in small quantities also make the process non-viable despite what people on the web have to say.

[Robert]

I just tested the two HP FET 'scope probes that I picked up in Southampton. Somewhat surprisingly they both work OK. The 1145A is particularly nice. It's a fairly modern, about turn of the century, unit. It's two channel 750MHz and designed for logic level (+-6V) inputs with micrograbber interface same as used on logic analysers. That one is a keeper.

[tggzzz]

I would have taken the 1145, but you got there first

[Robert]

Nope, I was later. It was in a bin of grey plastic boxes that were described as APC7 articulated arms for VNAs. Always a risk buying active probes as they are so easily damaged.

[tggzzz]

Nope, I was later. It was in a bin of grey plastic boxes that were described as APC7 articulated arms for VNAs. Always a risk buying active probes as they are so easily damaged.

Oh bugger. I specifically remember not looking in any of those boxes. Oh well.

[Zenith]

Unfortunately all of the units I've looked at soo far have had issues like water damage, incomplete repairs of poor quality and critical parts robbed.
One had a downright deadly modification of two C14 mains inlets. The original HP one on the back and another one on the side wired in parallel. So as long as it's plugged in one will have exposed live pins. There was a cut-off, epoxy filled C13 plug on a bit of lacing cord. This was obviously intended as a "safety" cover but the lacing cord was only long enough to reach the side connector...

I get the impression the previous owner was a complete junk hound with a very bad case of TEA. He worked where they used a a lot of this equipment, and for years intercepted it on its way to the skip. The list seemed like very disparate things which had been scooped up because they were TE, not because they fitted in with some particular interest. There were more than 200 items, which is a lot to love and care for.

I've yet to try the items tggzzz brought back for me from there. They seem pretty much complete, but I'd be surprised if any of them had no problems. I suspect at least half may turn out to be parts mules.

[Robert]

It almost all has property labels from his workplace. They cover decades and various ownership. At least one of the older items I got even had a property label stuck inside. Having visited the place I'm 100% certain it was all obtained properly. You would not sneak much out.
I agree it seems to be just anything TE. Unless the "good stuff" was already taken before the list was made it is an incoherent pile of stuff. Note the lack of DMM's and 'scopes

[Zenith]

He wouldn't have pinched it. Most of the items are too big and heavy to make that likely and there's too much of it.

For an organisation of any size, the value of much surplus equipment (obsolete, beyond economic repair) is not worth thinking about.

Attitudes to disposing of surplus equipment vary a lot.

University departments having a clearout would hire a skip and throw it all in. Once it was in the skip it was gone and they didn't care who fished it out. I have a big variac which came that way.

No employee takes company property off site. Surplus is crushed or all goes to a dealer.

It builds up and they have an auction for employees once in a while.

Once an item is declared scrap and off the company asset list, it's set to be disposed of as rubbish. Any employee can get his manager to sign a pass saying the item is scrap and can take it home. I have a bookshelf that came that way. It had problems which were easy enough to fix, but the company wasn't going to get someone to fix it. I had a pass saying I was taking it home as firewood.

I'd guess he came by it via the last one.

[EC8010]

I've just scrapped the Solartron Varipak that came from Crowdhill. That was always likely to happen as I paid £10 primarily for its 20H 100mA choke (C-core) and associated mains transformer (also C-core). The Weston moving coil meter has been salvaged, as have a few other odds and ends, and BA fasteners. As I was freeing wiring, some loose carbon fragments fell away. I think they were once an anode stopper resistor on one of the series pass valves. The Crowdhill trove is maintaining its record of nothing working properly.

[tggzzz]

Which pile did your stuff come from? Does something vaguely right, kaput, untested?

[tggzzz]

Even so, their stuff was in better condition than this https://www.ebay.com/itm/366708551569

[Cubdriver]

Even so, their stuff was in better condition than this https://www.ebay.com/itm/366708551569

They're on some seriously good stuff if they think someone's going to pay ANYTHING for that. WTF, was it used as a chock for an M1 Abrams?

-Pat

[Zenith]

The Crowdhill trove is maintaining its record of nothing working properly.

He was a compulsive junkhound. No question about it. He bagged everything thrown out, but didn't seem focused on fixing it.

Of the haul from there I've investigated so far, one 1740A seems to work but has knobs which are falling to bits, and the other doesn't produce a trace and I suspect has an EHT problem but is cosmetically good. You know, I've never really liked HP scopes. It's an itch I've now partially scratched. Had Tek 465s and 475s, 465Bs and 475As been on offer I would have asked tggzzz to fill my boots vicariously.

I haven't chanced the 8620C, 8640B, Wavetek 146, or Macaroni 2019 by powering then up so far. I suspect they are duff or mostly working. Between my working but problematic 8640A and the newly acquired 8640B there may be a good 'un, Dacron gears apart. That 8640B must have a nice attenuator at least, The 2019 and the 2019 I already have as a parts mule may produce a good 'un between them, but are at least spares for my working 2019, which I use a lot.

The Wavetek was a sophisticated function generator, for its time. It may be got to work, or at least produce useful bits.

The 8620C sweeper seems like a siren call into a world of YIG oscillators and tracking down plugins. A wise course might be to throw it into the small electricals section of the recycling wagon when it next comes round. I won't do that.

If you are interested in making equipment, some of this old tat can save you a fortune, You nave an enclosure with bale handle which would cost a lot new, It has a rear panel with IEC mains connector, fuse holder, all useful, and connectors which may or may not be useful, but can be ignored if they are not. The front can be replaced with a piece of aluminium sheet moulded to your purposes. It may even provide a suitable mains transformer and a few other choice bits.

Buy the case, IEC connector, xformer and fuse holder from Farnell - well £10 wouldn't even start to cover it.

[Zenith]

Even so, their stuff was in better condition than this https://www.ebay.com/itm/366708551569

They're on some seriously good stuff if they think someone's going to pay ANYTHING for that. WTF, was it used as a chock for an M1 Abrams?

-Pat

I don't recall seeing anything offered for sale so thoroughly beaten up.

You might rescue it from a dumpster if you had one you liked and it needed spares. The knobs look OK.

[tggzzz]

Even so, their stuff was in better condition than this https://www.ebay.com/itm/366708551569

They're on some seriously good stuff if they think someone's going to pay ANYTHING for that. WTF, was it used as a chock for an M1 Abrams?

-Pat

I don't recall seeing anything offered for sale so thoroughly beaten up.

Back in the days when adverts were things in the back of newspapers, there was an apochryphal advert for a lightweight Land Rover. "Barely been used, but parachute failed to open."

[tggzzz]

Of the haul from there I've investigated so far, one 1740A seems to work but has knobs which are falling to bits, and the other doesn't produce a trace and I suspect has an EHT problem but is cosmetically good. You know, I've never really liked HP scopes. It's an itch I've now partially scratched. Had Tek 465s and 475s, 465Bs and 475As been on offer I would have asked tggzzz to fill my boots vicariously.

I had a 1740, and quite liked its large screen and 50ohm input. Arguably 465s are better, but it is a very closely run race.

I didn't like the way the timebase switch abraded PCB tracks (fixable), and I believe the bridge rectifier is weak. The timebase markings had poor contrast and were difficult to read. I simply printed a new one, and stuck it on top of the old scale, under the plastic. I may still have the file, if you want to replace yours. EDIT: I've found it.

[Robert]

The HP PSU is OK for parts at $24 the knobs and terminals are worth that if you fix HP kit.
Or even build things. Parts, particularly hardware are getting very expensive. Wafer switches for example. I recently priced some up for a possible paying job and was shocked. They are now £20-£30 per wafer and similar for the mechanism. Good thing I have a good stock of NOS parts or hoard according to SWMBO