Thermal imaging cameras

[Specmaster]

Does anyone use one in their efforts to carry out repairs, and if so, what are your thoughts about them. Are they really a usefull tool or just another gadget and not particularly helpful?

If you have one, how do you find it? What model is it, and do you find that it really helps you or not?

[tggzzz]

For repair, as opposed to design, the main concern is whether a component is unnaturally hot. That requires knowing its natural temperature, which is normally not possible.

So far I've managed with a finger, a touch thermometer, and non-contact thermometer with a 20degree FoV. I place the latter as close as possible, move it slowly sideways, and note the maximum temperature. If I really wanted to meaure a component accurately, I might stick on an exposed junction thermocouple, and use a DMM to display the temperature.

I have twice felt (ho ho) that a bridge rectifier was too hot (Tek 475 and Tek time base generator), only to realise it wasn't.

I have borrowed a camera, and would use it again - but have felt no need to buy one.

[EC8010]

I have a FLIR TG165. Provided that you don't believe any of the numbers they produce, thermal imaging cameras are useful. I bought one for work (company money) and the same model for home (my money). I can't remember which I bought first. I've used them mostly for design work. One example was where I wanted to cool a SOIC8 op-amp (to reduce its input leakage current) but needed to keep any clattery stuff well away. I machined an aluminium cone, milled the sides to become a square that matched the Peltier device and fitted a 50mm long aluminium central rod that went to the top of the IC. Obviously, I needed to insulate everything. The camera was invaluable for telling me where my insulation wasn't good enough. Made all the difference in the world. I've also used it for spotting which IC is getting warmer than the others and dragging the supplies down.

The problem with thermal imaging cameras is that they measure the amount of infra-red radiation not the temperature. Thus, a shiny chromed hot thing (kettle) might emit less infra-red than a matt black heat sink, even though the kettle is much hotter. It all depends on the emissivity of the surface. That's why the numbers are guesses at best. They're useless for indicating hot spots on anodes inside glass envelopes, but very good for spotting hot/cold spots around the house. I don't use mine very often, but when I do, it gives me insight that I couldn't gain any other way, so I don't regret the purchase.

Thermal imaging cameras are great for party tricks. Walk across a carpet bare foot and the camera can see your footprints. Years ago, I made an insulated mug out of clear Perspex tubing into which my (conical) one pint beer glass fits. The Perspex is lined with EVA foam and the weight of the glass and contents is taken on a small EVA bung. A lid goes over the top of the glass when you're not actually imbibing. The mug keeps my beer cool right down to the bottom, even in summer. The beer tastes much better out of a glass than out of a stainless steel thermal mug. The thermal camera clearly sees the beer level from outside, even though I can't see it. Cats are clearly very well insulated, but their eyes are hot.

[MED6753]

Most times my finger is my "thermal camera".

[Specmaster]

Thanks for your views, I was looking at the Flir TG165 but then I spotted a less expensive one, the HABOTEST HT821A.

The advantage, as I see it, is that by having one and using it at a suitable distance from the DUT, it would quickly point out any areas of the device that were generating the most heat, indicating areas of concern and allowing homing in on the problem much sooner. I already have a laser infrared temperature probe which has been useful, but it does not provide a useful quick indication of suspect areas. It requires the laser to be pointed at each component to read its approximate temperature and can be time-consuming and potentially cause further damage with the affected part(s) subjected to the problem far longer than it needs to be.

[Zenith]

One of those things. It might save hours of messing about troubleshooting, or it might be something that's a bit of fun when it's new, and occasionally gets you out of a hole, but mainly sits there doing nothing.

This bloke investigates all sorts of things systematically. The best isn't always the dearest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAxj7dZLgR4&t=789s

Years ago someone gave me a trail camera to fix. He was about to throw it away. It was quite expensive, £80. It turned out to be corroded battery contacts. I could see the appeal of these things. I set it up in the garden and caught pictures of cats, and a hedgehog. I even caught a Muntjac dear. Fun to play with, good to have saved it from being e-waste, glad I'd been able to scratch the itch without forking out £80.

[Cubdriver]

The 1st gen Flir One I bought for my iPhone basically paid for itself when I got a Fluke voltage calibrator at Apex Electronics in Sun Valley, CA about a decade ago. He quoted a price, and I asked if it worked. We plugged it in, and it had no display. He knocked about $150 off the price due to that, and I was able to troubleshoot it that night in my hotel room - a small 2.2 µF cap in the power supply for the VFD was glowing like a match head. A quick visit to Fry's the next day and I swapped it and its mate, and the instrument was back to life.


There is parallax between the thermal and visible images because it was a close up - the dead cap is below the thermal bloom.

More recently, a thermal image made troubleshooting a Kenwood KR8010 with a shorted speaker protection relay free wheeling diode.

They don't ALWAYS help, but when they do, I find them to be a BIG help.

You can also find cats and radiant floor heating routing.


-Pat

[BU508A]

I'm having the Hikmicro Mini 2 Plus V2 which is a thermal camera for mobile phones.
It is okay price wise and it comes with a reasonable resolution and sensitivity.

A test report can be found here (sorry, it is in German but I do trust the source (Heise)):
https://www.heise.de/bestenlisten/testb ... dy/7cjrcbk

Link to their website:
https://www.hikmicrotech.com/en/industr ... ttachment/

[EC8010]

My thermal camera only has thermal sensor, so there isn't any parallax error from combining two sensors. I'm intrigued to see the insulation fitted to your cat, especially the stripy bit at the tail. Is that black wiggly thing a (cold-blooded) snake that the cat is about to play with?

[tggzzz]

A small 2.2 µF cap in the power supply for the VFD was glowing like a match head.

I realised last night that I might have encountered such an event. A camera is unlikely to have helped, since the PCB was buried in a stack. Think of a card frame where each PCB is part of the backplane, but without the frame!

[AVGresponding]

My CAT S3 phone has one built in, and it's pretty damn useful from time to time. The parallax error on it is atrocious, mind.

When I'm feeling flush I'll probably treat myself to one of the new Chinese ones; much faster frame rate and better resolution.

[Specmaster]

I'm having the Hikmicro Mini 2 Plus V2 which is a thermal camera for mobile phones.
It is okay price wise and it comes with a reasonable resolution and sensitivity.

A test report can be found here (sorry, it is in German but I do trust the source (Heise)):
https://www.heise.de/bestenlisten/testb ... dy/7cjrcbk

Link to their website:
https://www.hikmicrotech.com/en/industr ... ttachment/

My computer automatically translated it for me, it was just as if the site was written in english, perfect.

[Specmaster]

Ok then, I made a decision to pull the trigger on a camera on eBay. There was an option of 2 for me, bearing in mind that I will only be primarily using it to spot hidden hotspots on PCBs where the easily measurable and testable parts can be tested and have been but still not achieved a positive outcome, so things like ICs can be investigated for abnormal internal hot spots that would be indicitive of short circuits, so the ability to make videos was not a high priority for me.

I decided that the Flir TG615 was a little too expensive for the amount of usage that it would get, so I went with a Beha-Amprobe IRC-120, an old model introduced 7 years ago and still sealed in a blister packet, but older technology, or a Habotest HT821A, is still in production. The Habotest won it for me, as there will be some support for it for a while at least.

The Amprobe was still in auction with a current bid of £21.07 on it and 30 hours to run with 32 watchers on it, whereas the Habotest was new and sealed but had a Buy It Now price of just £57.90 (free P&P) and has rubberised case mouldings so it will withstand being dropped better, or at least it suggests it would fare better. This can also be sourced on Aliexpress where it is being sold by vendors with prices ranging from £74.22 to £199.59, so it would seem that some of the Chinese brands can be cheaper to source from sellers on eBay

Amprobe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrWrW9xwuBs

Habotest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiHEAmQc5_I&t=640s

[Specmaster]

Ok, I now have a job lined up for the camera when it arrives. I plugged my Philips electric shaver into charge, and about 30 minutes later, I noticed that the charge light had gone out and went to investigate. The unit was too hot to handle; quickly unplugged it and reached for the infrared thermometer to see how hot it was, and it measured 72C, ouch.

Once it had cooled down, I dismantled it, removed the soldered-in Ni-Mh AAA cells (one was reading 0v and the other 1.3v), placed the 0v one into a separate charger, which was trying to charge it at 330mA, and the battery remained at room temperature and after many hours, was still drawing the 330mA and voltage, while on charge was showing .01v.

Plugging the shaver back in, after checking it closely under a microscope, and the LED charging lamp lit OK, but the PCB was getting hot, so I unplugged it, and it now sits there taunting me while I wait for both the thermal camera and also the Ni-MH batteries I had ordered to arrive.

I never expected that I would be using the camera in earnest so quickly. Oh, yes, the one in the eBay auction eventually went for £63, so £6 more than the one I brought.

This shaver is only just out of warranty as well

[EC8010]

That suggests that current production NiMH are not very good, probably because lithium has become much more popular. There have been two fires in electrical waste at recycling centres recently, possibly caused by lithium batteries. I would be interested to know what percentage of the population knows what happens if you short circuit a lithium battery.

[tggzzz]

That suggests that current production NiMH are not very good, probably because lithium has become much more popular. There have been two fires in electrical waste at recycling centres recently, possibly caused by lithium batteries. I would be interested to know what percentage of the population knows what happens if you short circuit a lithium battery.

A fire broke out in a waste container at my local Recycling Centre. The publicised info was...

An investigation by the fire service found that this was very likely to have been caused by batteries being left in a small electrical appliance when it was thrown away.

“When disposing of electrical items in kerbside recycling boxes, remove batteries first and place them into an untied clear plastic bag inside your box. Never put them in your waste bin.”

People are also being urged to check for ‘hidden batteries’ before disposing items. These can be found in items including e-cigarettes, toothbrushes, shavers, chargers and toys.

I suspect the message is getting through, but some people are remarkably ignorant and peverse.

I wouldn't want to live in a skyscraper nowadays.

[Zenith]

Maybe, but in my experience NiMH was always a bit iffy, unless you splashed out and bought Sanyo Eneloop. The cheaper low self discharge ones were OK when they were new. Then charging comes into it. The better chargers used delta V, looking for the slight drop off in voltage when the cell was charged, which needed a fairly hefty charging voltage (>1/3C) or it would be too small to detect. Even better chargers used delta-T as well, the increase in temperature as the cell became fully charged.

Then if you have cells in series, there are more problems. If they are discharged too far, there will be a least capacity one, which is driven by the others, causing damage and a loss of capacity. But in appliances cells in series is damned convenient, which means either a much more complex discharging and charging arrangement or shortcuts. I think you have to accept that NiMH packs will need replacing after a time.

Anyway, I'm slightly surprised that Specmaster has a new-fangled cordless electric shaver. I'd have thought he was a cut throat sort of guy with a strop, a brush and stick of shaving soap

[Specmaster]

That suggests that current production NiMH are not very good, probably because lithium has become much more popular. There have been two fires in electrical waste at recycling centres recently, possibly caused by lithium batteries. I would be interested to know what percentage of the population knows what happens if you short circuit a lithium battery.

I'm a member of a car forum, and there are a number of electric car owners on there, and one of them has gone completely overboard on electric car ownership. So much so that he has his own solar array and battery storage and is constantly upgrading his system and is now looking to add to his solar system by buying and installing the infamous balcony plugin solar panels. These can just be plugged directly into a standard 13A wall socket.

That to me is a no-no; it is a death machine just waiting to happen even though the system disconnects the inverter if the system is unplugged. But we all know that electronic systems can and do fail, so it is just a matter of time before one of those systems is unplugged and someone gets killed by the system failing to shut down, leaving the pins of the plug still live from the solar panels during sunlight.

[EC8010]

Darwin in action. A photo-voltaic panel exposed to sunlight is a hazard and should be treated as such, but you'd need to touch both tips of the 13A plug. When was the last time you received a tingle from a printer's plug? Their EMC filter capacitors tend not to be discharged in switch-off. I recall a colleague getting a fizzer, but it's rare, suggesting that people don't tend to touch the tips of exposed 13A plugs. Just a thought.

[Specmaster]

Darwin in action. A photo-voltaic panel exposed to sunlight is a hazard and should be treated as such, but you'd need to touch both tips of the 13A plug. When was the last time you received a tingle from a printer's plug? Their EMC filter capacitors tend not to be discharged in switch-off. I recall a colleague getting a fizzer, but it's rare, suggesting that people don't tend to touch the tips of exposed 13A plugs. Just a thought.

I was thinking more of children, sort of seeing a plug on the floor and maybe moving it, or maybe unplugging the solar system to plug a phone charger in or similar. I know that the electrical industry opposed the introduction of this system, but Edd Milliband went ahead, claiming that it's used in Europe, OK? The system is supposed to shut down if it loses the 50 Hz signal from the grid, and Effix demonstrated this happening, but there is always the time when the system will fail, and then as long as there is sufficient light, the voltaics will continue to supply the built-in inverter, which will keep the plug pins energised and a potential hazard is lying on on the floor.

[Specmaster]

I suspect the message is getting through, but some people are remarkably ignorant and peverse.

I wouldn't want to live in a skyscraper nowadays.

What I find so staggering is that the EV evangelists are among the worst offenders; they go on and on about how virtuose they are and that we fossil fuel burning morons need to get with the plan. When you mention the dangers their batteries pose to the planet, ignoring the mining of the various metals and extra shipping, but just the real dangers of them being in a fire and then the toxic materials at the car is scrapped, they just don't get it, citing that more ICE cars catch fire. An ICE car on fire can be put out and stays out often within 10 minutes as opposed to a battery in thermal runaway, taking hours and can reignite.

[tggzzz]

I suspect the message is getting through, but some people are remarkably ignorant and peverse.

I wouldn't want to live in a skyscraper nowadays.

What I find so staggering is that the EV evangelists are among the worst offenders; they go on and on about how virtuose they are and that we fossil fuel burning morons need to get with the plan. When you mention the dangers their batteries pose to the planet, ignoring the mining of the various metals and extra shipping, but just the real dangers of them being in a fire and then the toxic materials at the car is scrapped, they just don't get it, citing that more ICE cars catch fire. An ICE car on fire can be put out and stays out often within 10 minutes as opposed to a battery in thermal runaway, taking hours and can reignite.

Dangers of X should always be assessed against the dangers of not-X and of Y or Z.

Fossil fuels are a real problem, and the predicted consequences are starting to become visible to the man in the street. Of course, the antivaxxers (and similar pathologies) and those in the fossil fuel business will continue to deny it. T'was ever thus.

Similarly ignorant hipsters (and similar pathologies) and those in the non-fossil fuel business will continue to ignore the problems with EVs.T'was ever thus.

I don't regard the manufacturing differences as being particularly decisive. Both cause pollution, of different types.
Ditto the political differences of manufacturing; the important countries will change, but t'was ever thus with new technologies.

I do get annoyed with people who can't or won't see some sub-optimalities of EVs:

• getting electricity for EVs from fossil fuel
• charging time, in the middle of a journey
• charging when you don't have a dedicated home/office parking place
• conflagrations, spontaneous and otherwise
• maintainability

There might be technological ameliorations for some of those, but others will require much more difficult political and social changes.

Does that mean EVs are "wrong"? No, because the problems with fossil fuel are critical.
Does that mean EVs are "the solution"? No, mainly because they are only part of the fossil fuel problem.
But EVs are here, are important, and will become ever more important.

Will I get one when my 2003 car dies? I don't know, and will delay that decision as long as possible. Maybe old age health problems will make the question moot; who knows?

In related" well that's not a surprise" news, did anybody notice that a planned AI data centre in Essex has been abandoned? The data centre was due to receive its power supply at the end of the year, but the developers have been told this will not happen until the 2030s. Expect more examples to emerge.

[Specmaster]

I suspect the message is getting through, but some people are remarkably ignorant and peverse.

I wouldn't want to live in a skyscraper nowadays.

What I find so staggering is that the EV evangelists are among the worst offenders; they go on and on about how virtuose they are and that we fossil fuel burning morons need to get with the plan. When you mention the dangers their batteries pose to the planet, ignoring the mining of the various metals and extra shipping, but just the real dangers of them being in a fire and then the toxic materials at the car is scrapped, they just don't get it, citing that more ICE cars catch fire. An ICE car on fire can be put out and stays out often within 10 minutes as opposed to a battery in thermal runaway, taking hours and can reignite.

Dangers of X should always be assessed against the dangers of not-X and of Y or Z.

Fossil fuels are a real problem, and the predicted consequences are starting to become visible to the man in the street. Of course, the antivaxxers (and similar pathologies) and those in the fossil fuel business will continue to deny it. T'was ever thus.

Similarly ignorant hipsters (and similar pathologies) and those in the non-fossil fuel business will continue to ignore the problems with EVs.T'was ever thus.

I don't regard the manufacturing differences as being particularly decisive. Both cause pollution, of different types.
Ditto the political differences of manufacturing; the important countries will change, but t'was ever thus with new technologies.

I do get annoyed with people who can't or won't see some sub-optimalities of EVs:

• getting electricity for EVs from fossil fuel
• charging time, in the middle of a journey
• charging when you don't have a dedicated home/office parking place
• conflagrations, spontaneous and otherwise
• maintainability

There might be technological ameliorations for some of those, but others will require much more difficult political and social changes.

Does that mean EVs are "wrong"? No, because the problems with fossil fuel are critical.
Does that mean EVs are "the solution"? No, mainly because they are only part of the fossil fuel problem.
But EVs are here, are important, and will become ever more important.

Will I get one when my 2003 car dies? I don't know, and will delay that decision as long as possible. Maybe old age health problems will make the question moot; who knows?

In related" well that's not a surprise" news, did anybody notice that a planned AI data centre in Essex has been abandoned? The data centre was due to receive its power supply at the end of the year, but the developers have been told this will not happen until the 2030s. Expect more examples to emerge.

That is/was precisely my point. I don't have an issue with the general concept of having electric cars; they can play a very important part in the general scheme of things, but I do have issues with the slow, relentless pressure of the government on their adoption and the increased pressure on fossil fuel cars being slowly forced off the road.

If everyone had the dedicated home/office/workplace parking and charging ability, it would be a great help. I have long been a supporter of the notion that maybe we should be at the very least banning hugely powerful road cars. Who on earth needs to be able to accelerate rapidly or travel over 100 mph?

I think 2 litres should be plenty of capacity, and we should encourage the engineers to make their creations much more fuel efficient and that roads should be designed and constructed to keep traffic flowing at a sensible speed and thus reduce both consumption and emissions. While at the same time continuing to develop alternative means of propulsion so that everyone who has a fossil fuelled car could convert easily to the new technology cars, unlike the current situation.

Many of these EVers are claiming that electric cars are essential to reverse the decline in life expectancy, which I find at odds with reality when official figures show an annual increase from 1950, when it was 68.69 years, to 2026, when it is 82.21 years. All of the time covered by this graph, engines have been slowly getting better and extracting far more MPG and lower emissions.

Source of information is here https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metr ... expectancy and similar results are also available from the the governments ONS site.

Screenshot_20-10-2026_144730_www.macrotrends.net.jpeg

[tggzzz]

That is/was precisely my point. I don't have an issue with the general concept of having electric cars; they can play a very important part in the general scheme of things, but I do have issues with the slow, relentless pressure of the government on their adoption and the increased pressure on fossil fuel cars being slowly forced off the road.

Pressure/encouragement can be useful and I don't object per se.

If everyone had the dedicated home/office/workplace parking and charging ability, it would be a great help. I have long been a supporter of the notion that maybe we should be at the very least banning hugely powerful road cars. Who on earth needs to be able to accelerate rapidly or travel over 100 mph?

I think 2 litres should be plenty of capacity, and we should encourage the engineers to make their creations much more fuel efficient and that roads should be designed and constructed to keep traffic flowing at a sensible speed and thus reduce both consumption and emissions.

Agreed.

I don't worry about powerful cars too much, since the emissions depend on how the car is driven, and that is limited by toad conditions.

I would like to see heavy cars banned (e.g. SUVs and other obese vehicles), since weight directly translates to increased pollution no matter how the car is driven. (¹/₂mv², mgh)

Pressure/encouragement should not ignore external and long-term problems, e.g. town/road architecture.

While at the same time continuing to develop alternative means of propulsion so that everyone who has a fossil fuelled car could convert easily to the new technology cars, unlike the current situation.

I don't think propulsion and even range is much of a problem nowadays. The other problems are more difficult to resolve.

Many of these EVers are claiming that electric cars are essential to reverse the decline in life expectancy, which I find at odds with reality when official figures show an annual increase from 1950, when it was 68.69 years, to 2026, when it is 82.21 years. All of the time covered by this graph, engines have been slowly getting better and extracting far more MPG and lower emissions.

Never heard that bollocks!