Interesting findings on the internet

[tggzzz]

?C1?

A failure code as would be reported on an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR). Specifically

Classification code C1 (Danger present)
Where an observation has been given a Classification code C1, the safety of those using the installation is at risk and immediate remedial action is required.
The person responsible for the maintenance of the installation is advised to take action without delay to remedy the observed deficiency in the installation, or to take other appropriate action (such as switching off and isolating the affected part(s) of the installation) to remove the danger.

OK.

Are you saying that all consumer units with wire fuses are automatically deemed to be so dangerous that the house's supply has to be forcibly disconnected?

What happens if the inhabitants rely on starlifts or emergency call buttons or.dialysis machines etc?

[tggzzz]

Yeah, lighting was the first application of electricity in the home.

It was, I believe, standard practice to connect all appliances to the light socket.

I'm surprised that nowadays you can connect any number of sockets to a single ringmain, provided the area is <100m². I presume the justification is that nowadays most appliances are <100W.

[Zenith]

I'm surprised that nowadays you can connect any number of sockets to a single ringmain, provided the area is <100m². I presume the justification is that nowadays most appliances are <100W.

I see these rules as being sensible guidance rather than something set in concrete. Extra sockets are usually fitted for convenience and not having to have leads stretching across rooms. A lot of appliances have a low draw, such as sockets used to charge mobile phones, or standard lamps.

A typical two storey house in the UK will have radial connections for heavy draw appliances such as an immersion heater, shower and cooker. There will be upper and lower lighting circuits, 5A - 1.2kW. That's a lot of lighting, especially these days with LED lamps. It was quite a lot with incandescent lamps. There will downstairs and upstairs ring mains fused at 30A as I recall, with each plug having a fuse of no more than 13A. That's 7.2kW per ring main. It's hard to see that being exceeded in any reasonable set of circumstances. You have a 2kW electric kettle, and a 2kW electric fire and are using a 1kW vacuum cleaner, and a washing machine that takes 1.5kW. That's an unusually heavy load and you are still not quite at 7.2kW. Furthermore these are not continuous loads; the kettle will only be on for a short time, the washing machine demand will be from a few Watts at times to the full 1.5kW. If you added more, it would blow the 30A fuse, but it's hard to see such circumstances arising very often.

If you were fitting ring mains in a mansion it might be different.

[tggzzz]

I'm surprised that nowadays you can connect any number of sockets to a single ringmain, provided the area is <100m². I presume the justification is that nowadays most appliances are <100W.

I see these rules as being sensible guidance rather than something set in concrete. Extra sockets are usually fitted for convenience and not having to have leads stretching across rooms. A lot of appliances have a low draw, such as sockets used to charge mobile phones, or standard lamps.

A typical two storey house in the UK will have radial connections for heavy draw appliances such as an immersion heater, shower and cooker. There will be upper and lower lighting circuits, 5A - 1.2kW. That's a lot of lighting, especially these days with LED lamps. It was quite a lot with incandescent lamps. There will downstairs and upstairs ring mains fused at 30A as I recall, with each plug having a fuse of no more than 13A. That's 7.2kW per ring main. It's hard to see that being exceeded in any reasonable set of circumstances. You have a 2kW electric kettle, and a 2kW electric fire and are using a 1kW vacuum cleaner, and a washing machine that takes 1.5kW. That's an unusually heavy load and you are still not quite at 7.2kW. Furthermore these are not continuous loads; the kettle will only be on for a short time, the washing machine demand will be from a few Watts at times to the full 1.5kW. If you added more, it would blow the 30A fuse, but it's hard to see such circumstances arising very often.

If you were fitting ring mains in a mansion it might be different.

All valid, but there are some countering forces.

Ceiling light cable is usually rated for half-enclosed operation, i.e. resting on something but with the other side open to ventilation. That's the reason you are supposed to ensure loft insulation is under the cable. But nowadays they often just rest the extra new 6" of insulation on top of the cable

Daughter's house is just under the 100m² limit. Mine is well under the limit

[AVGresponding]

?C1?

A failure code as would be reported on an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR). Specifically

Classification code C1 (Danger present)
Where an observation has been given a Classification code C1, the safety of those using the installation is at risk and immediate remedial action is required.
The person responsible for the maintenance of the installation is advised to take action without delay to remedy the observed deficiency in the installation, or to take other appropriate action (such as switching off and isolating the affected part(s) of the installation) to remove the danger.

OK.

Are you saying that all consumer units with wire fuses are automatically deemed to be so dangerous that the house's supply has to be forcibly disconnected?

What happens if the inhabitants rely on starlifts or emergency call buttons or.dialysis machines etc?

Pretty much, yes. Those are very much edge cases, and in any case a prohibition notice is not necessarily easy to enforce on private property; however if there was to be an electrical fire, for example, in such a property after a notice had been issued, there might be serious legal consequences.

[Zenith]

All valid, but there are some countering forces.

Ceiling light cable is usually rated for half-enclosed operation, i.e. resting on something but with the other side open to ventilation. That's the reason you are supposed to ensure loft insulation is under the cable. But nowadays they often just rest the extra new 6" of insulation on top of the cable

Daughter's house is just under the 100m² limit. Mine is well under the limit

It's impossible to design these rules to be completely prescriptive. Lighting cable runs through sheathing in walls were it isn't half enclosed. There have never been many 1kW domestic ceiling lights which would bring a stretch of cable to near its limit. They probably exist, e.g some huge chandelier, but you'd wire them appropriately. 5A cable will be underrated anyway. No one is going to essentially rewire a loft to run cable over insulation, when messing with insulation is an unpleasant job anyway, and any ceiling light is not likely to exceed 200W.

There's no step effect in the physics of ring mains when they supply more than 100m², or have more than a certain number of sockets. I wouldn't necessarily be concerned were I living in a place where a ring main supplied 150m² (in fact I might well like it very well). Circumstances can be devised where a ring main supplying 90m² could be operating at or beyond its limits.

Obviously, it's advisable to stay within the rules, and that's usually easy.

[tggzzz]

A failure code as would be reported on an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR). Specifically

Classification code C1 (Danger present)
Where an observation has been given a Classification code C1, the safety of those using the installation is at risk and immediate remedial action is required.
The person responsible for the maintenance of the installation is advised to take action without delay to remedy the observed deficiency in the installation, or to take other appropriate action (such as switching off and isolating the affected part(s) of the installation) to remove the danger.

OK.

Are you saying that all consumer units with wire fuses are automatically deemed to be so dangerous that the house's supply has to be forcibly disconnected?

What happens if the inhabitants rely on starlifts or emergency call buttons or.dialysis machines etc?

Pretty much, yes. Those are very much edge cases, and in any case a prohibition notice is not necessarily easy to enforce on private property; however if there was to be an electrical fire, for example, in such a property after a notice had been issued, there might be serious legal consequences.

Two of those did apply to my parent's 3-phase 1850 house, and there very nearly was a fire when my mother let the bath overflow and some of the water ended up two floors below (not three to our surprise!) via the light fittings. Two months later I accidentally discovered[1] it was Grade II listed, and not insured as such.

[1] Wrong number, wrong street, right location seen on an Historic England map.

[tggzzz]

Circumstances can be devised where a ring main supplying 90m² could be operating at or beyond its limits.

Obviously, it's advisable to stay within the rules, and that's usually easy.

Just so. It was the "any number" that surprised me. Fortunately freezers don't take much power, except for a second when starting!

Insurance company would check the limits very carefully, post hoc.

[Zenith]

Circumstances can be devised where a ring main supplying 90m² could be operating at or beyond its limits.

Obviously, it's advisable to stay within the rules, and that's usually easy.

Just so. It was the "any number" that surprised me. Fortunately freezers don't take much power, except for a second when starting!

Insurance company would check the limits very carefully, post hoc.

The local shop decided to fit half a dozen air conditioning units. They must have had a very persuasive salesman round.

They have about 10 chilled cabinets and four or five freezers with clear tops, plus maybe 1kW of lights etc permanently on. They asked me why the main trip blew several times a day. I had a look at the rather ancient fuse board. I explained that they had all these things rated at about about 1kW plus an impressive number of air conditioning units, all of which spent a small %age of their time turned on. Especially in hot weather, the likelihood that they would all be turned on at the same time was considerable. If that happened there'd be enough load to trigger the trip. If they triggered the trip, they'd have to switch some units off, to avoid having it trigger immediately they reset it. I had to draw a diagram to explain it. They either had to:

Upgrade the supply - probably expensive - and the rest of the wiring might be inspected and have to be replaced - painfully expensive.

Have a management system to supervise the loading. Either hideously expensive, or immense fun to design and implement yourself. They wouldn't have seen this as great fun, but more of a cruel and unusual self-inflicted torment.

Get rid of all those air-conditioning units.

They got rid of all but one air-conditioning unit and the problems disappeared.

Insurance companies would check that and all sorts of other things to avoid paying out.

Friends were making an insurance claim and a woman came to visit them and explained the she was a Loss Adjuster and did they know what that meant. Peter said, "Yes, it's someone who attempts to browbeat people into accepting lower payments than they are entitled to". She didn't manage to adjust the losses in their case.

[tggzzz]

Insurance companies would check that and all sorts of other things to avoid paying out.

I was once rear-ended in a queue for a roundabout.

The other insurance company came round to look at the car. The first thing they checked was the tyres, which obviously couldn't have contributed to the accident. Doesn't take much imagination to think why.

The other insurance company paid out.

[tggzzz]

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/ca ... lAN5K2Q5K7
The common theme is too bloody true: distract the driver.
Touchscreens, lane sensors, zoned climate control, automatic headlights.

[Zenith]

Years ago I was rear-ended at a roundabout. I had a witness in the car. If you go into the back of someone, there's not usually much excuse. The bloke clearly wasn't paying full attention.

About all it did was slightly widen the gap around the rear door, but it wasn't that obvious and there wasn't a leak. It was an old car, but it got me about. I did make a claim against him. I was worried it might have upset the tracking of the rear wheels, so I took it to be checked. There was no problem.

I phoned his insurers and said I was happy to let it drop. The woman asked if I didn't even want any money. Money? That's different. A very affable bloke came round from the insurance company and estimated the damage at £500, which was about what I thought the car was worth. There was no examining of tyres or anything like that. They sent me a cheque for £500. A right result.

I don't know what was going on there. The insurance company wasn't as red in tooth and claw as I thought they'd be. Maybe the claim was below the noise, or it was worth £500 to ding his no claims bonus, or it was the excuse they were looking for to get rid of him as a client.

[Zenith]

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/ca ... lAN5K2Q5K7
The common theme is too bloody true: distract the driver.
Touchscreens, lane sensors, zoned climate control, automatic headlights.

The thing I hate on my car is the parking sensor. It's by default on. If I turn it off, it turns itself back on after a minute or so. If I'm in a supermarket car park where I'm concentrating on manoeuvring I don't want this thing beeping away as a distraction and turning itself back on, when I've turned it off. After the bloody thing has been an irritating nuisance, which has refused to go away, it flashes up a warning sign, which says it's dangerous to be distracted by the parking system! It has to be dismissed by touching a screen, which is more distraction. It would be OK if it came on when I wanted it on. It also beeps at my gate posts, which is another useless distraction.

I don't mind the automatic headlights.

I don't have lane sensors, but I can see that being another PITA.

[AVGresponding]

OK.

Are you saying that all consumer units with wire fuses are automatically deemed to be so dangerous that the house's supply has to be forcibly disconnected?

What happens if the inhabitants rely on starlifts or emergency call buttons or.dialysis machines etc?

Pretty much, yes. Those are very much edge cases, and in any case a prohibition notice is not necessarily easy to enforce on private property; however if there was to be an electrical fire, for example, in such a property after a notice had been issued, there might be serious legal consequences.

Two of those did apply to my parent's 3-phase 1850 house, and there very nearly was a fire when my mother let the bath overflow and some of the water ended up two floors below (not three to our surprise!) via the light fittings. Two months later I accidentally discovered[1] it was Grade II listed, and not insured as such.

[1] Wrong number, wrong street, right location seen on an Historic England map.

The other things I forgot to mention, is that when it comes time to sell it, it will cause problems. Estate agents may refuse to deal with it, or insist on a seriously discounted price.

Fire insurance may also be problematical. They'll probably sell you fire insurance, but I'm willing to bet the small print would exclude paying out if the electrical installation doesn't have a current EICR, as a means of proving that it's up to modern specs and regs.

[tggzzz]

Pretty much, yes. Those are very much edge cases, and in any case a prohibition notice is not necessarily easy to enforce on private property; however if there was to be an electrical fire, for example, in such a property after a notice had been issued, there might be serious legal consequences.

Two of those did apply to my parent's 3-phase 1850 house, and there very nearly was a fire when my mother let the bath overflow and some of the water ended up two floors below (not three to our surprise!) via the light fittings. Two months later I accidentally discovered[1] it was Grade II listed, and not insured as such.

[1] Wrong number, wrong street, right location seen on an Historic England map.

The other things I forgot to mention, is that when it comes time to sell it, it will cause problems. Estate agents may refuse to deal with it, or insist on a seriously discounted price.

Fire insurance may also be problematical. They'll probably sell you fire insurance, but I'm willing to bet the small print would exclude paying out if the electrical installation doesn't have a current EICR, as a means of proving that it's up to modern specs and regs.

Not "may sell insurance and quibble later"; that's a certainty, just like health/travel insurance. It has got so bad that there are moves to ensure insurance companies state explicitly what you must declare; "all relevant information" is seen to be insufficient since punters cannot know what "relevant" implies.

As for estate agents, those for my parents' house said £X if it was in perfect condition. But since it needed £Y work, it was put on the market at £X-Y. Even though Y was large, we just wanted the house off our hands, so we accepted that. New owners reckon they've spent more than £Y, to the point they wondered if they had bitten off more than they could chew. Still, they managed to move in after a years' work.

UK top tip: you can't get probate granted until HMRC agrees the value and you have paid them their cut. You can't sell house until after probate granted. If £Y is large, they think you are undervaluing the house, and so delay granting probate. Catch 22. Escape route: state you will accept the sale price rather than the value on death day, and ensure house is sold on the open market, not to a relative or business associate.

[Cerebus]

I don't know what was going on there. The insurance company wasn't as red in tooth and claw as I thought they'd be. Maybe the claim was below the noise, or it was worth £500 to ding his no claims bonus, or it was the excuse they were looking for to get rid of him as a client.

While there is the a possibility of a claim you're an unknown liability on the insurance company's books. Once they have made final and full settlement of the claim you're accounting history. As individual claims can potentially run to millions you can see how having many unknown liabilities sitting on the books could raise a auditor's eyebrow and cause them to say they are not in a position to unequivocally say that the company is a "going concern" - that would raise havoc with an insurance company who need to be essentially above reproach where their accounts, probity, and stability are concerned.

One just wouldn't insure with a company if one knew it had any significant auditor's qualifications in its last audit - would they still be there come payout time which may be many years (6 years + time that a court case takes to settle, which itself can be years, in most cases) down the line.

[Zenith]

I'm sure that's generally true, but in this case I made it clear I was happy to abandon the claim, and there was no question of whiplash, or the passenger being a high-powered barrister so traumatised that his earning potential of millions had been destroyed, or any nonsense along those lines.

I had been done wrong but I was prepared to shrug it off, but the person on the other end of the phone alerted me to the fact that I could get very welcome bank notes out of it.

It's a mistake to think of large companies (or other large organisations) as rational actors with perfectly consistent and well thought out policies. The Bud Lite episode comes to mind.

[Specmaster]

I've seen some weird things. My parents 1850 house had its mains cable emerge in the centre of the property. The next owners discovered it was a 3 phase supply! The round-pin 13 amp wall sockets were all disconnected; just as well since the vulcanised rubber insulation had disintegrated.

Their previous house's internal wiring had lead sheathed 2 core cables; dog knows how (in)effective the ground connections were at joints. The earlier wire was single insulated wires laid in wooden E-shaped conduits. Neither types were in use, but I wish I'd kept a section or photograph.

There you go, fixed that for you.

Wood conduit capping.jpeg

[tggzzz]

I've seen some weird things. My parents 1850 house had its mains cable emerge in the centre of the property. The next owners discovered it was a 3 phase supply! The round-pin 13 amp wall sockets were all disconnected; just as well since the vulcanised rubber insulation had disintegrated.

Their previous house's internal wiring had lead sheathed 2 core cables; dog knows how (in)effective the ground connections were at joints. The earlier wire was single insulated wires laid in wooden E-shaped conduits. Neither types were in use, but I wish I'd kept a section or photograph.

There you go, fixed that for you.

Wood conduit capping.jpeg

Yeah; that's what I (sort of) remember from c1980.

Can't remember where the earth was, though.

Informative text about lead sneaked variant: https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o ... -component

[Specmaster]

I've seen some weird things. My parents 1850 house had its mains cable emerge in the centre of the property. The next owners discovered it was a 3 phase supply! The round-pin 13 amp wall sockets were all disconnected; just as well since the vulcanised rubber insulation had disintegrated.

Their previous house's internal wiring had lead sheathed 2 core cables; dog knows how (in)effective the ground connections were at joints. The earlier wire was single insulated wires laid in wooden E-shaped conduits. Neither types were in use, but I wish I'd kept a section or photograph.

There you go, fixed that for you.

Wood conduit capping.jpeg

Yeah; that's what I (sort of) remember from c1980.

Can't remember where the earth was, though.

Informative text about lead sneaked variant: https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o ... -component

Around 40 years ago I was employed as a factory engineer responsible for all forms of maintenance for the entire site, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, building, machinery etc and it was located behind these 2 big houses (at the time it was just 1 house, with the doorway on the left) and access was via the archway. The rest of the factory has all been pulled down, and a housing estate built on the land.

One of the jobs I did while working there was to completely rewire the front house (offices) and the entire place was oak panelled everywhere, like a stately mansion it was which I had to retain and behind the panelling was sh1t loads of that wooden capping/conduit along with loads of the lead covered power cables to the sockets, lights were run in the wood capping with single cables. That was a job and a half but I managed it with my apprentice and the oak panelling was removed and refitted once the wiring was updated.

The site is now called Foremans but at the time it was L P Foremans and is where all the packing crates for the big Marconi Radar scanners and English Valves TV transmitter tubes were produced for shipping all over the globe.

L P Foremans.jpg

L P Foremans site.jpg

[bd139]

So bored and drunk after an extremely profitable couple of days "digging people out of the shit thanks to Crowdstrike" I am cruising YouTube and find that Chief Furby Mutilator actually produces slightly decent music

[BU508A]

AI offers no economical benefits:

https://www.theintrinsicperspective.com ... sk-none-of

[BU508A]

This is perhaps interesting for our fellows in Canada:

Assessment of Rogers Networks for Resiliency and Reliability Following the 8 July 2022 Outage – Executive Summary

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/publications/rep ... na2024.htm

[Specmaster]

So bored and drunk after an extremely profitable couple of days "digging people out of the shit thanks to Crowdstrike"

This is interesting, a bit over my head to sort it out, but if this what he is saying is correct, then once you know what to look for then it should be easy to resolve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAzEJxOo1ts

[tggzzz]

So bored and drunk after an extremely profitable couple of days "digging people out of the shit thanks to Crowdstrike"

This is interesting, a bit over my head to sort it out, but if this what he is saying is correct, then once you know what to look for then it should be easy to resolve.

I t didn't take long for the "reboot in safe mode, use CLI to delete some files, reboot" procedure to be stated. One of the early comments was "good, but how do I apply it to 70000 endpoints".