Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) : Discussion and Group Therapy Thread

[tggzzz]

Ha!

See post by me at top of previous page involving PS Waverley

[synx508]

Ha!

See post by me at top of previous page involving PS Waverley

I think that was what prompted me to post.

That reminds me of a test equipment enthusiast who vanished some years ago, possibly now deceased. He was known as Archivist on IRC and he had a self-hosted website cataloguing his collection. He was a volunteer at a steam pumping station for a canal somewhere north of here and I don't know what happened to him but there's that steam connection again.

[Zenith]

Recently, I was asked by my father-in-law, who is an electronic engineer who worked in broadcast TV and video why I keep buying test equipment and what is it that I want to measure? I told him it was sort of like those people who build or restore steam locomotives. That evening I did a bit of Googling for the person who tends to buy any HP gear that I take to rallies and put it in his Merc. It turns out he has a celebrated steam railway in his garden. Now a bit worried that I might become a train obsessive but my garden's about 12 metres long so no chance of a ride-on railway.

Facile attacks can be made on most leisure activities along those lines. Painting and drawing are very popular hobbies. Why? You can take a photo of anything you want to record, or have a professional artist draw or paint it for you for not that much. Most of the stuff they turn out will end in the bin or on a fire. They'll never make a living out of being an artist, even if they are good and can sell their works for a few hundred a pop. They do it because they enjoy it.

I have a friend who has been heavily into O gauge railway modelling and was a scratch builder. I can see the appeal, especially for those of us old enough to remember steam locomotives. There was something of living things about them.

The 5" and 7.25" and above scenes I've only glimpsed at. Always a big money game, or for the dedicated enthusiast. I believe it's become more approachable since companies with CNC machining have been churning out intricate running gear for reasonable prices.

[synx508]

They do it because they enjoy it.

This sums it up, I'm sure I'd enjoy scratch building a steam engine, too. I'd end up picking up lots of skills I wish I had and could probably be spared the recent expense of a new car exhaust system that only needed replacing because it was a bit rusty and a small protruding part of it with a critical role had departed somewhere in Windsor Great Park.

The test equipment thing happened in phases for me, bouncing between work and a hobby almost by accident. Until about 2008 I'd been getting by with equipment salvaged from a skip at college in 1991 and a really rough HP 1700A that I bought at Ascot boot sale. Waning enthusiasm for working with the internet and nagging from radio professional friends dragged me back to electronics. The story gets a bit sad more recently, but I think TE therapy has helped me enormously when I needed a distraction and it has been nice to discover that I'm not alone in enjoying tinkering with these old machines.

[mnementh]

Before anybody asks...

No, it wasn't me.

mnem
Democracy dies in darkness.

[mansaxel]

They do it because they enjoy it.

This sums it up, I'm sure I'd enjoy scratch building a steam engine, too. I'd end up picking up lots of skills I wish I had

Here too. I find I can fabric-cobble things just because I've been tinkering a long time. Bodges are a special talent here. The vortex vanes in the inlet of current car are operated by something that looks like a 1970s RC car servo, via a small pushrod linkage. This tends to wear out in the ball joints, and breaks when you try taking it out. So 1,5mm mild steel wire and PVC tape it is. The new spare is being sent to our hotel and will possibly arrive today.

The test equipment thing happened in phases for me, bouncing between work and a hobby almost by accident.

I worked at a sound and lights company in the early 90s, and the repair guy was denied the request of a scope, so I wanted one. That's the easy answer. And now I do it because I can. I do like to point out that I've actually used all the working instruments in my collection to perform measurements beyond the checking of standards.

[bd139]

So are my Citizen watches, but I would never like to put them to the test, but a proper true diver's watch, well that's different.

Not really. Depends to what standards they comply with or is it just marketing.

Your other point from the earlier post is quite frankly wrong. Treating a device with respect is not an insurance policy. Having a standard test procedure and certification however is against the things it is tested against.

So for example my iPhone 15 Pro is IP68 rated. My AW9 is rated to 50m depth under ISO 22810:2010, full immersion. Also on top of that, IP6X dust rating. They are actual standards and they test them. Extensively. I think they said they get through 10,000 handsets during the test cycle data collection.

The consequence of that certification is that the device is designed with that as a higher priority over battery replacement. There are literally ZERO removable battery phones out there with snap on backs as you mentioned which come even close to that. If you swap your battery every 3 years, that is exactly the design trade off that should be made.

Incidentally if you take it to Apple, they will actually seal it properly (it requires special equipment to do this) afterwards. (you can hire the kit from selfservicerepair.com if you want but why the hell would you).

[Specmaster]

So are my Citizen watches, but I would never like to put them to the test, but a proper true diver's watch, well that's different.

Not really. Depends to what standards they comply with or is it just marketing.

Your other point from the earlier post is quite frankly wrong. Treating a device with respect is not an insurance policy. Having a standard test procedure and certification however is against the things it is tested against.

So for example my iPhone 15 Pro is IP68 rated. My AW9 is rated to 50m depth under ISO 22810:2010, full immersion. Also on top of that, IP6X dust rating. They are actual standards and they test them. Extensively. I think they said they get through 10,000 handsets during the test cycle data collection.

The consequence of that certification is that the device is designed with that as a higher priority over battery replacement. There are literally ZERO removable battery phones out there with snap on backs as you mentioned which come even close to that. If you swap your battery every 3 years, that is exactly the design trade off that should be made.

Incidentally if you take it to Apple, they will actually seal it properly (it requires special equipment to do this) afterwards. (you can hire the kit from selfservicerepair.com if you want but why the hell would you).

nah, the point I was making, maybe badly, is that Citizen state their watches are water-resistant to a depth, not waterproof, even though they are water-resistant, I just don't take any chances, other than washing my hands with them on, I will always take the watches off if I had to immerse my hands in water. On the other hand, something like Omega Seamaster watch waterproof to a depth of 1000 ft would be perfectly, so it should at around £6,600 a go, whereas my most expensive Citizen watch is £900.

[Zenith]

Timex watches, advertised on TV in the 60s. Shockproof, waterproof and gold-plated. One of the ads had one being case out with a fishing rod and drawn back in the manner of a lure, and it was still going.

Fifty years ago watches were sold as water-resistant to a depth, even purpose made diver's watches. I asked a jeweller about this when I bought one, and he said it was due to the Trade Descriptions Act, which made descriptions much tighter. "Waterproof" in a sales description was taken to mean absolutely water proof, and no maker would claim that and risk ending up in court with a weak defence.

In my experience of these things, the O rings which seal them need replacing well before time.

[mnementh]

I am much more worried aboot a watch being exposed to dwagon-sweat than I am a little mostly-inert water while swimming or showering.

mnem
stainless steel... often isn't.

[Specmaster]

I am much more worried aboot a watch being exposed to dwagon-sweat than I am a little mostly-inert water while swimming or showering.

mnem
stainless steel... often isn't.

True, dwagon-sweat and normal sweat is salty. Stainless Steel as in Citizen watches most certainly is stainless steel unless it's titanium, I've had lower quality watches in the past claim to be stainless steel, but they sure are not as the sweat eats into the cases and leaves then all rough.

[Zenith]

I've always found stainless steel watches cause slight skin irritation after a time. I haven't noticed the stainless steel has been even slightly corroded, although there must have been some chemical action. Surgical grade stainless steel is hardly expensive when you consider the amount used in a watch. The titanium watch I've had for the last 30 years has never caused even a hint of skin irritation.

Also I find leather straps fall apart after a couple of years, and cause irritation. Metal straps are a pain for all sorts of reasons. My watch has a webbing strap. I think it's most likely synthetic rather than traditional webbing.

A watch I wish I still had is the fake Rolex. It was great for pissing off people with genuine Rolex watches.

[Cerebus]

I've always found stainless steel watches cause slight skin irritation after a time. I haven't noticed the stainless steel has been even slightly corroded, although there must have been some chemical action. Surgical grade stainless steel is hardly expensive when you consider the amount used in a watch. The titanium watch I've had for the last 30 years has never caused even a hint of skin irritation.

Quite a lot of people have a sensitivity/allergy to nickel, and the commonest alloy used for watches 316L has 10-12% nickel.

[bd139]

I've always found stainless steel watches cause slight skin irritation after a time. I haven't noticed the stainless steel has been even slightly corroded, although there must have been some chemical action. Surgical grade stainless steel is hardly expensive when you consider the amount used in a watch. The titanium watch I've had for the last 30 years has never caused even a hint of skin irritation.

Quite a lot of people have a sensitivity/allergy to nickel, and the commonest alloy used for watches 316L has 10-12% nickel.

This was a problem for early Apple Watch users as well. The alu alloy they used had a high nickel content. I couldn't wear one. They changed it around S6 or so as they did with their laptops finally. I dissolve them with my sweat instead now.

[Cerebus]

This was a problem for early Apple Watch users as well. The alu alloy they used had a high nickel content. I couldn't wear one. They changed it around S6 or so as they did with their laptops finally. I dissolve them with my sweat instead now.

Yeah, the nickel makes more contribution to chloride ion resistance than any of the other alloying elements apart from nitrogen (which is obviously highly limited by how much you can add). If you're going to make SS nickel free then it's going to have much less resistance to sweat and seawater that the optimum alloy.

[bd139]

This was a problem for early Apple Watch users as well. The alu alloy they used had a high nickel content. I couldn't wear one. They changed it around S6 or so as they did with their laptops finally. I dissolve them with my sweat instead now.

Yeah, the nickel makes more contribution to chloride ion resistance than any of the other alloying elements apart from nitrogen (which is obviously highly limited by how much you can add). If you're going to make SS nickel free then it's going to have much less resistance to sweat and seawater that the optimum alloy.

That explains that then.

It does not however explain my alien sweat

[AVGresponding]

This was a problem for early Apple Watch users as well. The alu alloy they used had a high nickel content. I couldn't wear one. They changed it around S6 or so as they did with their laptops finally. I dissolve them with my sweat instead now.

Yeah, the nickel makes more contribution to chloride ion resistance than any of the other alloying elements apart from nitrogen (which is obviously highly limited by how much you can add). If you're going to make SS nickel free then it's going to have much less resistance to sweat and seawater that the optimum alloy.

How about TiN-ing?

[tggzzz]

I've just narrowly avoided avoided buying another Tek 468. I went to £18, but someone was prepared to pay £22, plus uplift of course.

Instead I've forked out for some gory (literally!) stereoscopic slides. I'll keep them for a while, then should be able to flip them for a profit.


Now, do I get them to send them to me, or should I make a long day out by collecting them and seeing the Royal Signals Museum? The obvious time to visit that museum would be after FRARS, but it is shut on Sundays

[Cerebus]

How about TiN-ing?

TiN is normally applied as a surface hardening treatment rather than as a corrosion passivating layer. I've no idea of the corrosion performance of TiN although instinct says it's probably quite considerable. As the whole 'stainless' bit of stainless steel is a self-passivating layer effect I'd say that adding another passivating layer would be a bit self defeating. SS can be nitrided and N is the most effective anti-corrosion alloying element for SS (16 times more effect than chromium weight for weight, 5 times more than molybdenum), so that seems a good route to go down if you want a corrosion resistant low/nil nickel stainless steel.

I know way too much about stainless steel and chloride ions as a former metallurgist flatmate, Clive, did his final year degree project and then his PhD on "Stress Corrosion Cracking in Stainless Steels" and he was the type who liked to lecture you on what he was learning so I absorbed a lot by simply not being able to turn my ears off.

[mansaxel]

Another major goalpost in my acquisition plan has been reached. [(hp)] 3312A, Israeli tank brake block past (also some productive past at a radar manufacturer in the same country) -- bough BIN for 400SEK on local auction site. It did not linger more than a few minutes on the site before I pounced.

Some violence from the sejour past its working life, there's a dent in the front panel, but insides look clean, all controls operate nicely, and there are 4 feet, 2 front ones with wire bail. Missing is one or two of the pot knob heads, but that is not a major issue for me. The top lid's been off. It was sticky, and required brushing with detergent and some magic sponge rubbing to clean up. This revealed some faint felt tip pen traces that I will ignore.

Not yet tried to power it on, but that will come today.

[AVGresponding]

Doesn't look bad inside... hope I didn't just jinx you!

BTW if anyone finds an HP 8904A at a sensible price, please let me know...

[Zenith]

BTW if anyone finds an HP 8904A at a sensible price, please let me know...

Try Stewart of Reading. They list them with no price. They have a special offers list with prices, but it isn't on that. Their lists may not be that accurate, because stuff comes and goes. You have to phone them and ask.

http://www.stewart-of-reading.co.uk/Stewarts.pdf

http://www.stewart-of-reading.co.uk

I've dealt with them a couple of times. I've found they can be surprisingly reasonable on prices, often better than ebay, and they are pleasant to deal with. They also give a 30 day guarantee, which is something. At least they were confident the item worked when they dispatched it.

[mansaxel]

Powered the 3312A up. Did it on the kitchen table so haven't tested it thoroughly, only having a Fluke 8060A to measure with. It produces AC voltage the frequency and amplitude of which can be manipulated, the PSU adjustments (17,1V, within 50mV on positive and negative rail) are OK, and I don't get any AC reading on the rails (but that needs checking with a scope).

That's reassuring. I don't yet understand the modulation, but will dig out a scope for that.

The functional verification according to the manual is quite extensive, so will have to amass some free time for that.

[ch_scr]

Playing with a Function gen with modulation is a bit magical and great fun!
Make sure to have an audio-filter (simple RC LPF is good enough in a pinch) handy,
so you can test-drive the sweep capability as well.

[Zenith]

A good bag. That seems like a very low price. HP kit of that era was beautifully made.

Function generators with any degree of sophistication, (at least sweep) and respectable waveforms, I've found are incredibly useful. I've got a Siglent SDG2000X I use a lot.